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hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re: Are YOU 100% Sure YOU Are Saved?

why i believe a true born again christian can end up in hell.

If the apostle Pauls letters should be understood in the calvinistic way of interpretation, and paul believed in once saved always saved. Why would he write and warn, exhort and rebuke believers in sin or lukewarmness or living in wordiness knowing they where in no real danger anyway?

also the way some believe that for example the letter to the hebrews was written for the hebrews and not for us, then to me it would be very inconsistent to quote much of the assurance verses from the old testament like passages that refer to creating a new heart in people, since that was written for the Jews in the Babylonian captivity, or to refer to any part of scripture that do not apply to us directly, now i believe in the scripture to have a "dual" message, one for whom the author was writing to and for all believers throughout all ages.

and since all scripture are written for us it all apply to us, and the literal hundreds of verses warning us , exhorting us and plainly saying we are in danger if we live in sin can not be explained away if dealt with honestly.

do i believe if you sin once you will go to hell? no i dont, as much as i dont believe if you do one righteous act you are not righteous.

I believe scripture says God will come after us mightily to bring us back, but since all true love is from a choise, if i go buy a doll for my children with a string on its back and when i pull it it says "i love you" that is not true love, and if god "forces" us to be born again against our free choice that is not love, just as that dolls love is not real.

So if we continually chose to live in sin even tho God is calling us and working in us and around us to make the choice to repent and come back to him, if we then chose the world, its lust , and sin, i dont think he will bring us home.

Does that make God less sovereign? no it dont, it just show us the law of love is working.

I could write much more that i have not really havent come to grips with as of yet, but these are my main problems with the once saved always saved doctrine.

and i think this passage is the one that shows it beyond any doubt.

1 Corinthians 10:1-5 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.


and when reading this letter in once sitting to get the whole context of why Paul wrote this letter and to whom, its obvious, to me at least, and all verses in revelation alone is very heavy, so i think its very clear the possibility is there. But as i said i do not believe god will cast someone out into the darkness for sinning one time, as long as we have a longing to follow him and the will to be his child he is faithful and will finish what he started. We need never fear as long as we are willing to come to him, whenever we sin, stumble or fall, he will bring us back and put our feet on the rock, if we are willing, if we leave him and go to the world and sin.... he will not force us.

Then it would not have been love, and without love, it would make no sense God even to make all of creation and man.

Just my addition to this thread :-)

God bless you all


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/6/10 12:15Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

hmmhmm,

There are numerous warnings to individuals in churches against sinning and lukewarmness because there is an internal/external distinction within the church.

What I mean is this: it is possible to be a part of a church visibly and externally, but not a part of the church internally and invisibly (elect). We all know this - there are church members who are not saved. Paul writes to churches containing those people. The elect, as Spurgeon noted, do not have a stripe down their back. Even Jesus told us that the church would have wheat and tares (interestingly, he didn't speak of wheat morphing into tares, or of sheep morphing into goats). Therefore, the Apostles wrote to the churches as such. They issued such warnings because, A) the visible church is made of wheat and tares and B) God uses such warnings as a means of stirring up His people to holy living.

Therefore, the warnings are not at all inconsistent with the preservation of the saints by God.

The passage you quoted (1st Corinthians 10:1-5) is a warning to not rest in the visible ordinances of the church as a gurantee of salvation. In other words, do not rest in your baptism (Red Sea), and Lord's Supper (spiritual food and drink), because many Israelites partook of such ordinances and were found out to be unbelieving. They were goats.

I encourage you to seriously and prayerfully reckon with the following passages:

And I will make an [i]everlasting covenant[/i] with them, that [b]I will not turn away from them[/b], to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, [b]that they shall not depart from me[/b]. (Jeremiah 32:40)

We know that believers are part of this everlasting covenant, because of the following:

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the [i]everlasting covenant[/i] (Hebrews 13:20)

I'm curious to know how God can say in the book of Jeremiah that he will never turn from those whom he has an everlasting covenant with, and, not only that, they will never turn from him - yet, people talk about how true born again believers can end up going to hell.

I hope this is helpful!

With care in Christ,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2009/6/10 13:16Profile
bible1985
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

great verse in jeremiah.The scriptures also speak somewhere that whatever is not of the father will be rooted up. Also in the epistle of peter it says that we our born of an incorrupitible seed.

 2009/6/10 13:54Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

[i] all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ (1Co 10:4 NKJ)[/i]

I may be wrong, i have been several times in the past, but they drank from Christ, spiritually..... They had part in Christ...

yet god was not pleased with most of them and they died in the desert. To me it does not seem as they where unconverted church members.

Quote:
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. (Jeremiah 32:40)



I agree god will never depart from a believer who wants to come to him, but as i said if this believer do not come to him but continues to walk away from God, I am not sure this person will be in heaven. I believe god never turns, but he has given us the option to turn from Him, He never left Israel in the desert, they left Him.

But even tho you may stumble and struggle with sin and fall every day of your life, even a losing battle, if you truly want God and seek him and forgiveness in brokenness of heart and in faith I believe God will make him persevere to the end because his heart was right.

and in the book of Jeremiah god says he will never leave us, Jesus said many such things also and i hope in those promises, but he is not going to force them upon me, just as he does not force his gift upon us, he does not force bible knowledge into my head, he does not force his presence into my life if i want tv and and other things more then him. but if i want to.... there is an infinite ocean available, all the heavenly riches of Christ, all the perseverance, all grace all mercy, all his presence. all this all of us can get, god is no respecter of persons, but all of us also can chose not to pray, not to read the word, sit home and watch tv rather then fellowship and go to church ect.

None of these things saves us, but if done in truth they will be as white and black in a christians life, and i have come to the conclusion so far in my walk, in the sum of scripture I believe the end can be hell for a born again christian, God wont force us to heaven.

But if we are willing he will aid us and even keep us from falling once scripture says, even from stumbling....

amazing, not just persevere, but not even stumble.

God is good, and faithful, so that is the reason for exhorting one another as long as it is called today, that we may not fall away, that is the reason to building each other up in our most holy faith. That we should be encouraged and never stop coming to him no matter how dark it is.

I once read through the new testament promises, i had a list, dont know how many verses, but i wouldent lie if i said hundred, i read all those verses in their context and to my amazement i found all had a condition attached to them. If that now is a good word to use, maybe there is a different one that suits better, but that is what i found, all promises of God comes with a condition, and i found salvation does to.

Faith and repentance.

And isent it amazing? we believe faith is a one time deal, i believed once on God and that once i was born again, that is true for all of us in past tense, at one time we did believe and where born again, but Joh 3:16 says....For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever [b]believeth[/b] in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

that word beliveth in the original greek is in a tense that does not exist in my language, dont know if tense is the right word? but you who know grammar i encourage you all to look it up, it meens to believe and continue to believe.....

its a continuing faith.... if one have true faith, and dies with no faith he dont have eternal life. perseverance is a good word, but falling away also is a good word, or two, its a balance in scripture, and i may be repeating myself but i see too persevere you must fulfill the condition by faith throughout your entire life.

anyway, i doubt many will agree with me, but hope you all have patience with me :-)

Gods grace and peace in abundance brother.


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/6/10 13:54Profile









 Re:

Taylor,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. Your post reminds me of the necessity of interpreting scripture within the context of the history of redemption. Many of us, including myself, simply proof-text. Without a clear understanding of the Gospel as interpreted within the context of the history of redemption, we really cannot understand the scriptures.

We must have our minds renewed, not by a scripture here and a passage there, but by the Word of God; what does the bible say...as a whole?

What is the Gospel? What is the difference between the law and the Gospel? What is the purpose of the law? What is the purpose of the Gospel? Is there law and Gospel in both testaments? How do we rightly divide the Word/

These are the things that we must ask if we are to properly understand the scriptures.

 2009/6/10 13:56
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Quote: And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. (Jeremiah 32:40)

I agree god will never depart from a believer who wants to come to him, but as i said if this believer do not come to him but continues to walk away from God, I am not sure this person will be in heaven. I believe god never turns, but he has given us the option to turn from Him, He never left Israel in the desert, they left Him.



But, don't you see in this passage from Jeremiah, the person you described must have never been a true believer? The passage clearly states that someone who is a part of the everlasting covenant can [b]never[/b] turn from God.

Oh Lord, if you force me to stay close to you, keep forcing!

Mahoney,

Thank for you for the encouragement.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2009/6/10 14:10Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Well in 1 John it says whoever is born of God does not commit sin......

does that meen a truly saved person never sins?

I dont believe that, but comparing your interpretation of the verse in Jeremiah i could make the same interpretations of other verses and it dont make sense. I believe the verse in Jeremiah should be interpreted in the same way as we interpret the verse in 1 John.

i dont have all the answers, i see a lot of holes and much inconsistency with the sum of all scriptures to say one person who is saved can never fall away completely.


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/6/10 14:17Profile
bible1985
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

i believe in the greek you can interpret i john as saying he who continues in sin, i have the amplified new testament so i will tell you later.

 2009/6/10 14:23Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Hmmhmm,

So is the phrase: "they shall not depart from me" true or false?

With care in Christ,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2009/6/10 14:27Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Hmmhmm,

So is the phrase: "they shall not depart from me" true or false?

With care in Christ,
Taylor



Its true brother, its true,, they will never depart as long as they have the fear of God in their hearts, the day they dont have that i am not so sure.


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/6/10 14:32Profile





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