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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
rainydaygirl wrote:

what does bearing fruit(works) mean in a believers life?

It means everything!

Works bring about [b]fruit[/b] of righteousness.
With out works, there will be no fruit.

In other words, a changed life, a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that you do.

If one does not choose to changed their life, they will not bear fruit.

If one does not choose to adopt God's view on life, they will not bear fruit.

If one does not choose to change their motive for everything that they do, they will not bear fruit.

In these new aspects of your life will become actions or works that give a testimony of Christ in you (which is the greatest fruit).

When you perform your salvation as you're suposed to, by obediance, your giving evidence of your faith.
By doing this, your allowing God to display Himself in you, both to desire and to be effective for the sake of His good desire (Philip 2:12-13).

Just as Abraham was justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar in obediance, faith was prooved to be fruitful by his works, and by works, his faith was made perfect (James 2:21-22).

 2009/6/9 19:41Profile
rainydaygirl
Member



Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


 Re:

Logic
thank you for clearing that up for me. From your other post I thought that you believed bearing fruit(works) was more about the externals of what a person does instead of it being a heart matter. I think i better understand you now.

rdg

 2009/6/9 20:30Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

rainydaygirl wrote:
Logic
thank you for clearing that up for me. From your other post I thought that you believed bearing fruit(works) was more about the externals of what a person does instead of it being a heart matter. I think i better understand you now.

rdg

It does involve "externals".
The "externals" are what others see as our witness.

If Abraham did not have an external work of offering Isaac, his son, upon the altar in obediance, his faith would not have been made perfect.

Of coarse, if our heart is not right, there will be no works/fruit, but without "externals", what good is our fruit of the heart?
In fact, if there was no "externals", it would prove the fruit of the heart to be false.

Faith is substancial evidence, evidence that one can taste, touch, see, hear, &/or smell (Heb 11:1); these are "externals".

 2009/6/9 21:06Profile
bible1985
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

Hebrews ch. 6 assures that if you lose your salvation you can't get it back but he assures the believers that their born again and their kind of fruit will not fall away as does john in his epistle.

 2009/6/9 21:13Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
Is this in contrast to continusl unwillful sin?
I don't get it.



Do you not understand the difference between willful and unwillful sin???

Patrick
www.jonahproject.org


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2009/6/9 21:18Profile
rainydaygirl
Member



Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


 Re:

Logic
Thank you for your response, I understand what you are saying.

rdg

 2009/6/9 21:22Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christisking wrote:
Quote:
Is this in contrast to continual unwillful sin?
I don't get it.

Do you not understand the difference between willful and unwillful sin???

So, are you saying that one can continually sin unwillingly and still keep eternal life?
(If there is a such thing as unwilling sin)

All sin is willful.

Whatever is not of faith (when willing and able to have faith) is sin. Romans 14:23

Knowingly (willfully) transgressing the law is sin. 1John 3:4
If one can not know the law, he can not transgress it ([color=990000]where no law is, there is no transgression[/color] [b]Rom 4:15b[/b]; [color=990000]sin is not imputed when there is no law [/color] [b]Rom 5:13b[/b]

Knowing (willing and able) to do good and not doing it is sin. James 4:17

All unrighteousness is sin. 1John 5:17
One can not be unwillingly unrighteous.
If one is unwilling to be unrighteous, then all he needs to do is repent with faith. If he refuses that and still is unwilling to be unrighteous, he is lying.

However, when Paul is saying that the sin which he does that which he would not (Rom 7:16)
He is not saying that he is committing unwillful sin.
That is why he says, "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me" (Roman 7:17, 20

This "sin" which he is talking about is a concept of sin which is actually the unlawful desires [b]which are [u]in[/u] the flesh[/b] (Romans 7:23,8:3b).

One can not unwillingly give in to these unlawful desires; giving into these unlawful desires are always willful.

 2009/6/9 23:01Profile
mayIfearHim
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 7
Australia

 Re: ? 100%

Here's the test:
1 John 2:3-5 "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says' "I know Him", and does not keep His commandments is a liar (deceived) and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him."

I've also been made aware that the first words out of Jesus mouth to all seven churches in Revelation, other that His description of Himself are:

"I know your works."

He does not say. "I know your hearts."

I've been blessed by all the responses so far. Thank you :-D

 2009/6/10 1:16Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Hi Logic,

Willful and unwillful sin is a common scriptural concept understood by many Christians

Heb 10:26-27 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the
truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (27 ) But a certain fearful looking for of
judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heberews 10:26 clearly puts forth the concept of willful sin. The concept of willful sin is
easy – it is willful transgression of the law. For instance, it would be willful sin if someone was to know that looking with lust was adulatory at heart and to continue to
look at pornography. To say “I don’t care if looking at pornography is sin I am going to do it anyway.” This is willful sin.

Unwillful sin is sin that we do not commit willfully. For example, say next week God was to put His finger on an area of unknown pride in your life and convicts you of this pride – would that pride be sin this week before God shed light on it? Of course it would. We all have many areas in our life that fall short of the glory and perfection of God such as pride, lack of faith (stress, worry, ect.) covetousness, un-contentment, anger, inpatients, bitterness, and many other sins that God has yet to shine light on in our live as we all fall short of the glory of God.

1Jn 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Another example of unwillful sin would be if you were to be inpatient and unkind to someone and then God convicted you of your impatient and unkind attitude and later that evening and you had to call and apologize. Have you ever had an out burst of anger or unkind or cutting words possible to your wife or children or someone you knew and had to apologize? This would also be unwillful sin. Yes, out burst of anger, unkind words and attitudes, impatient and such are all sins but are often not committed as willful transgression of the law. None the less, they are sin and still need to be repented of and reconciled with the offended party when we are convicted by the Holy Spirit. In fact just recently I was convicted by the Holy Spirit for the way I had treated 4 people three years ago. I repented and called up all of the people, apologized and asked for forgiveness. I most certainly did not willfully sin when I had treated these people poorly, in fact at the time I though what I was doing was right, none the less my actions were indeed sinfull and most certainly required repentance. I am sure most have had similar experience in some form or another – this is unwillful sin.

I hope this makes sense. Please let me know if I need to explain it better.

God bless,

Patrick
www.jonahproject.org


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2009/6/10 1:27Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Where I differ with my Calvinist brothers is the belief that this is an automatic thing that will occur.




While I do not think the reformed would say it is an "automatic thing" (that sounds so cold and mechanical) I would agree that the reformed believe that Christ actually accomplished something in His death and resurrection. He did not secure the potential for salvation; He did, in fact, secure salvation (justification, sanctification, and glorification) for His people; all that the Father had given Him. It is finished.

Just like one man, King David, brought victory to the entire nation of Israel in defeating Goliath, so to, one man, Christ, brought victory to all His people. And it is through His victory that He GIVES to us, that we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

In fact, salvation is not a thing that will occur, it HAS occurred. It is finished. The enemy has been crushed. Paul even says as much in his doxology in Romans 8:

Quote:
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.



Quote:
If you are not allowed to go by genuine discernment of their fruits to tell if others are really saved, then one is incapable of discerning their own personal salvation by the discernment of one's own fruit.



While I personally desire the life of Christ to be formed in me and in my wife, kids, family, etc...I do not think the discernment of "fruit" in one's life should be the primary means of discerning one's salvation.

Remember an apple tree, though it is an apple tree, does not bear fruit in the winter. If you go by some of the orchards here in the Northeast in the winter, you may even think that most of the trees are dead. Outwardly they look just terrible, but the TRUTH is that inwardly there is life, and in their season they will bear fruit.

The Husbandman is taking good care of His trees.

 2009/6/10 11:41





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