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White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

Quote:
You called Obama a 'pretender'.



He has not proven his Constitutional eligibility by showing his Long Form Birth Certificate. His citizenship was not vetted. If someone climbs into the palace by a rope that does not make them Prince.




_________________
Janice

 2009/6/8 19:26Profile









 Re:

"He has not proven his Constitutional eligibility by showing his Long Form Birth Certificate. His citizenship was not vetted. If someone climbs into the palace by a rope that does not make them Prince." whitestone

Oh please!!! That has no biblical foundation at all.

If you want to argue secular 'Constitutional eligibilty' then that's fine. To me that's more of an ideological statement than a biblical one. I have no problem letting the media and conspiracy theorists hash that out.

You say 'pretender' on the grounds of your own opinion even if you think there's proof of what you claim . While others will provide their own version of 'proof' that there is legitimate citizenship. So where does that leave us??? It's fruitless to fly to Hawaii or wherever else with our magnifying glass like Sherlock Holmes to inspect the authenticity of credentials. The FBI, the CIA, are more equipped for vetting than I.

I'm not a journalistic investigator so I don't know if the claims are true or not. I could delve into it and spend much time and energy in proving the factuality of his citizenship, or lack thereof, but where does that leave me even if I have the right conclusion?? Will God be any different in His choice to raise or lower leaders in His sovereignty??

I was never interested in 'hanging chad's' or what people said about our former President in terms of legitimacy. To me that was just sour grapes to those who wanted to whine about what they couldn't control. It's amazing how people react when they don't get what they want. I know God's in control and I kind of felt sorry for those who felt secular leadership was the only resolution to our problems. Many of those who opposed our former President's legitimacy, and couldn't let go of it, don't know God's in control and cannot rest in this. They were just beating their heads against a God reinforced wall. No use. I was glad I could rest at that time and am glad I can rest in God's plan now. It's blindness of the flesh to think we know better than God. I expect that more from the secular world than from peculiar Christlike brethren.

Reiterating the last half of your quote above:

"If someone climbs into the palace by a rope that does not make them Prince." whitestone

If God lets them slide down a rope and let's them be called prince then that's what they are.

God doesn't answer to me, I answer to Him.



 2009/6/8 20:05









 Re:

Quote:
Have you considered Franlin's epitaph? Quote:



Quote:
The Body of B. Franklin, Printer; like the Cover of an old Book, Its Contents torn out, And stript of its Lettering and Gilding, Lies here, Food for Worms. But the Work shall not be wholly lost; For it will, as he believ'd, appear once more, In a new & more perfect Edition, Corrected and amended By the Author.



I don't see how is epitaph says anything about his belief.

What about article 11:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." - "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", 1728

TaylorOtwell:
"Regardless if America was a Christian nation, it certainly doesn't practice such now. Perhaps our goal should be less effort on arguing about what we were and more effort in restoring those principles (the Constitution) to the present and future."

Amen...completely right. But my concern is that America thinks it has it together because they feel they are a Christian Nation and by claiming that from past and present day we feel privileged and expect God to bless us because of it. But if we would realize that we should humble ourselves now, before God humbles us!

Anyways my two little cents.

 2009/6/8 21:11
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi reformer...

I am not trying to argue whether or not Benjamin Franklin was a deist or not (especially at the end of his life). I will say that his beliefs in government were founded upon Christian principle.

As for the "Article 11" writing that you introduced, the Avalon Project at Yale University doubts that it ever existed. Even if Franklin did write these words, they are not official texts of the United States...and only cement the author's opinion. There are many, many writings by Franklin that indicate a need for divine intervention at the creation of the nation. His autobiography is filled with allusions to Christianity and even his friendship with evangelist George Whitefield. We can consider several of Benjamin Franklin’s quotes that indicate a greater appreciation of Christianity. For instance:

Quote:
“Young man, my advice to you is that you cultivate an acquaintance with and firm belief in the Holy Scriptures, for this is your certain interest. I think Christ's system of morals and religion, as He left them with us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see.”

…or this from the Constitutional Convention…
Quote:
“I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid?

We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that "except the Lord build they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall be become a reproach and a bye word down to future age. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human Wisdom, and leave it to chance, war, and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move -- that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service.

If he was a deist, he was a “Christian” deist. While he might not have been a true believer, his thinking was strongly influenced by Christianity.
Yet Franklin was just one of [u]many[/u] men who contributed to the founding of the nation. Through research of their writings and speeches, it is clear that they had a great fondness for Christianity. Many said forthrightly that this was a Christian nation.

Like I said earlier, I agree that this nation is far from a “Christian” nation in terms of where the majority stand with God. Our nation is filled with sinners. I doubt that many believers would argue with that. Yet it is a stretch to argue that this nation was not once “a Christian nation” at least in terms of the guiding principles during its founding. Sadly, the slow rejection of Christianity in America has led to an increase in unrighteousness. While I would still never want to live anywhere else (unless the Lord sent me), I am still praying for a revival in this land of my temporary citizenship. I cannot help but consider that God has placed us in this land “for such a time as this.”


_________________
Christopher

 2009/6/8 21:58Profile
OK2PRAY
Member



Joined: 2007/4/26
Posts: 24


 Re:

Leonard Ravenhill said, The darkness of this world is the gift of the Church..."
As far as America being a Christian Nation i agree with what this dear friend wrote...it's worth repeating ihope you don't mind.

Hi hmmhmm…


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

can someone define what you meen by christian nation? because there is no such thing according to my new testament understanding

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know that the term “Christian nation” sounds a little disingenuous to those of us who are aware of the moral and spiritual famine in this land. No one (I think) would believe that America is a nation comprised of a majority of Christians (Christians as defined by the Scriptures).

America, however, is a nation where the majority of citizens actually claim to be Christians. Of course, this claim is exerted by “Christians” from all creeds and sects. According to the CIA from information taken by the US Census Bureau and the Department of the Interior as of 2007, 51.3% of Americans claim to be Protestants (defined as anyone belonging to Protestant denominations, fellowships, organizations or individual churches), 23.9% claim to be Roman Catholic, 1.7% claim to be Mormon, 1.7% claim to be other types of Christians. This equates to nearly 77% of the entire population.

Many world leaders consider the United States to be a Christian nation. Of course, they are likely pointing to the 77%+ figure from the CIA or other intelligence agencies. This is quite understandable. We all consider the United States to be an English-speaking nation, but only about 82% of the population actually speaks English (and some might argue that some of that 82% don’t speak English very well – lol). So from an entirely analytical perspective, America is a predominantly Christian nation. Major polling data this year has indicated that roughly 90% of Americans claim to believe in God, 81% believe in Heaven, 78% believe in angels and demons, and 70% believe in the existence of the Devil and Hell. About 80% of Americans claimed to believe in God and an additional 13% claimed to believe in a “Universal Spirit” or “Higher Power.” According to a recent Gallup poll, approximately 80% of Americans believe that “the Bible is the actual or inspired Word of God,” while approximately 18% believe that it is a fairy tale or uncertain of its validity.

Now, as far as Obama’s claim that this is a large Muslim nation, the CIA lists that only 0.6% of the population claims to be Muslim. However, 1.7% report to be Jewish and 0.7% claim to be Buddhist. Other minor religions make up 2.5% of the nation. Those who claim to be unaffiliated with any particular religious sect comprise about 12.5% of the nation (however, this number also includes certain Christian groups, including private home churches). Only 4% of Americans report that they do not belong to any sort of religious persuasion.

The nation was surely founded upon Christian principles. An overwhelming majority of the founders of this nation incorporated their faith into much of their decision making process. The speeches and writings of early America consisted of the Christian faith. The founders also engrafted Christian principle into the very laws of the nation. In fact, the Bible was required reading for law students in the United States (like a young Charles Finney) for over 100 years after the founding of the nation! Aspects of Christianity are found throughout our nation. In fact, Communist leaders during the Cold War (and more recently, Islamic clerics) dismissed our founding documents (like the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution) to be “Christian texts.”

As believers who actually know the Lord, we certainly realize that many people who claim to be a “Christian” don’t meet the Biblical definition of the word. Our entrance into Heaven is not conditional upon what we called ourselves here on Earth. Only those who are truly born again – who know the Lord Jesus Christ – will meet the Biblical definition of a “Christian.”

Yet there is no mistaking that much of the world considers this to be a “Christian” nation. Islamists, Hindus and communists call us a Christian nation. Atheists and amoralists try to claim that this is NOT a Christian nation – and seemingly go out of their way to try and make it so. Interestingly, my wife is a school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area. She works at a private school with a large Asian-immigrant population. She has been told repeatedly by the Indian, Chinese, Korean, Russian (etc…) parents that they were happy to live in a “Christian nation” now. Once, my wife asked why they called the United States a “Christian” nation. The parents told her that all she had to do was live in their former countries for a while to understand the difference.

America is far from perfect. Many of those founding Christian principles have been dumped by certain politicians in this nation. Our nation now leads the world in the total number of abortions (however, former communist nations like Russia, Bulgaria, and Cuba vastly outnumber in the per capita abortion rate). Sin abounds in America, and many people would like the government to “protect” their “rights” to live in sin (and even want the government to say that their sinful lifestyle is “normal”). For many, their “Christianity” is confined to a label and does not follow them when they are alone, or to work, or to the voting booth. Even many “Christian” churches preach a “religion of convenience” where they pick and choose the topics that they find helpful for their lifestyle. A “relationship with God” is often confined to a few prayers when they are stressed, in trouble, or want something good. To many who claim to be Christians, a relationship with Christ is muddied by the doctrines and traditions of men.

But for all of its faults, America still embraces many of the same principles that were created by its founders. Liberty can be, of course, a Christian principle. We can freely choose to follow Christ or to reject Him. Yet no one would pretend that we could vote or legislate the Lord to the masses. However, much of legislation is not a matter of faith, but of righteousness and unrighteousness. For instance, abortion is a repulsive slaughter that has been literally legislated to fruition by unrighteous men. Homosexuality is literally being legislated by men who want the state to recognize and protect a sexual fetish as “normal.” Commercial pornography that is marketed to lustful men is sometimes funded by the state as “free speech.”

More importantly than how “Christian” our temporary nation might be is the fact that God placed many of us here. We are given the opportunity to live in a relatively free nation. If any of you have had the opportunity to live or travel overseas, you will quickly realize how blessed you are to live in this nation. When my wife (then girlfriend) studied in Europe while in grad school, she told me via telephone and email that she couldn’t wait to return to the States. It wasn’t that Europe wasn’t a beautiful place, but that it lacked many of the things that Americans take for granted – from the simple things (good toilet paper and inexpensive American products, air conditioning, fast food) to the most important things (like readily accessible Christian fellowship and encouragement).

I have traveled to other countries. Like my wife, I always return thankful for the country of my temporary earthly citizenship. Yet I am also struck with the overwhelming responsibility given to me. Like Esther, I believe that I have been placed here in this position for “such a time as this” (Esther 4:14). I also remember the Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14-30). For those of us who have been so blessed as to live in countries like this, we must realize that we are like the man who was given more talents. What will we show for it?



_________________
-Chris
Jeremiah 29:11-13
<

"Are the things you're living for worth Christ dying for?"
- epitaph of Leonard Ravenhill

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
- Jim Elliot

 2009/6/16 23:59Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 please explain that quote

Quote:
Leonard Ravenhill said, The darkness of this world is the gift of the Church..."



What did he mean by that obscure statement?

How does he mean the Church gave darkness to the world?

I do agree with what you said about traveling outside the USA. It is a gift from God to have had the freedom to worship as we have had here.

Kind regards,
white stone


_________________
Janice

 2009/6/17 0:22Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 5185
Louisiana

 Re: please explain that quote

America is under the judgement of God for her sins of abortion, immorality, and idolatry to name a few, and the judgements are going to get much worse. To whom much is given, much will be required. We have been blessed as a nation like no other, but have backslid in our prosperity.

I thank God for our Christian heritage in this nation and for the freedoms that we have been blessed with. As long as we have recognized God in our government, out schools, and in other areas of life, we have been blessed by God. Our friendshp and aid to Israel, helping the poor and the needy around the world has brought the blessing of God on this country. However now we are pressuring Israel to divide their land and this will result in certain judgement to this nation.

We desperately need another revival in this nation that will reult in a great awakening. The majority of the people in this nation are deceived, and for the most part the church is asleep.

Judgement must begin in the house of God. Will the Church in America get it right, pray, humble itself and repent or will we brought down low by the hand of God?

America is not the kingdom of God, and being on the right side politically is not going to change us. We must seek the face of God. We need His presence in our churches. God is merciful, longsuffering, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance and the knowledge of the truth.

God shall not be mocked, and America is now reaping an harvest of the humanism and pride that has been sown.

May the Lord have mercy on us.

Mike


_________________
Mike

 2009/6/17 8:14Profile
bobmcd510
Member



Joined: 2006/6/23
Posts: 65


 Re: A merica is a Christian Nation!

Congressman Forbes speaking on this subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpQOCvthw-o


_________________
Bobby

 2009/6/17 15:34Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re: A merica is a Christian Nation!

Galatians 6:7-8 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

The fact that America pronounces that it is a Christian nation would bring gods judgment much harder upon her then otherwise i believe.

corruption=5356 fqora, phthora {fthor-ah'}
Meaning:
1) corruption, destruction, perishing 1a) that which is subject to corruption, what is perishable
1b) in the Christian sense, eternal misery in hell
2) in the NT, in an ethical sense, corruption i.e. moral decay


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2009/6/17 16:12Profile
OK2PRAY
Member



Joined: 2007/4/26
Posts: 24


 Re:

wow...there's a wealth of knowledge on this site. Thanks for all you do, God bless :-)

 2009/6/20 22:28Profile





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