| Poster | Thread | int3grity
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Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 76
| | Re: | | Brothers and sisters, I apologize. Lateley I have been so misrepresented and bombarded with slander starting with my Pastor from the pulpit (while I was away) last Sunday so misrepresenting the doctrines of grace that one of my dearest friends turned against me and then I have been trying to reason with a woman who has a radical feminist apologetics ministry who is making a dvd project to attack these doctrines but she twists every reasonable point I make into something I never said and misrepresents the position with emotional, anger inducing slanders. It all piled up and I snapped. My point in the polemical statements was to try and point out what is constantly done to people who believe the doctrines of grace. I think it really grates on us and makes it hard to not be upset and want to be blunt. I am generally very gracious about these things. Forgive me for snapping like that.
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Ryan
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|  2009/6/4 11:02 | Profile | tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA
| | Re: | | Quote:
myself dont think calvinsim honestly deals with mans ability to respond to the gospel and also in the area of once saved always saved, i guess those two mix its contradiction of all five points in calvinism. And I have read much calvinistic authors and none so far has been able for me to reconcile the very large sum of verses that says otherwise. Not spurgeon or edwards or withfield or washer. All fail in reconciling much scripture to the five points. in my opinion I do think wheter one holds to this side or that do best in preaching Gods word in its fullness, even the verses that may contradict some areas of our doctrines. then we will have no regret in the final day
I believe the Bible itself reconciles them just fine. I need not man to convince me what God teaches. I think there may be verses that seem to be contradictory, but are truly not when properly interpreted. The problem is then with who holds the key to proper interpretation. I believe the Bible holds the key
scripture interprets scripture. I believe this is truly done through the doctrines of grace.
I think the point of the original posters post was the heart of this very matter. Dropping our humanistic understandings and presuppositions and just accepting what the Bible teaches
even when it gets bumpy and hard to accept.
All of the men you mentioned admit to not understanding all the mysteries surrounding these doctrines.
The key is not in being persuaded by these men but in simply accepting Gods truth as it is. This is where men often stumble
by attempting to wedge God into their limited ability to comprehend Him and His ways.
We are all entitled to our opinions but I do not want an opinion
I want THE truth.
As far as I am concerned the Bible is clear on these issues. I may not fully grasp the hows and whys, but I know He does. That is fine with me.
God bless you my brother from Norway! :-)
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TJ
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| | 2009/6/4 11:19 | Profile | tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA
| | Re: | | Quote:
int3grity wrote:
Brothers and sisters, I apologize. Lateley I have been so misrepresented and bombarded with slander starting with my Pastor from the pulpit (while I was away) last Sunday so misrepresenting the doctrines of grace that one of my dearest friends turned against me and then I have been trying to reason with a woman who has a radical feminist apologetics ministry who is making a dvd project to attack these doctrines but she twists every reasonable point I make into something I never said and misrepresents the position with emotional, anger inducing slanders. It all piled up and I snapped. My point in the polemical statements was to try and point out what is constantly done to people who believe the doctrines of grace. I think it really grates on us and makes it hard to not be upset and want to be blunt. I am generally very gracious about these things. Forgive me for snapping like that.
I will pray for you. It is par for the course for those who hold reformed views.
God bless you all! :-)
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TJ
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| | 2009/6/4 11:21 | Profile | repentcanada
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Joined: 2005/5/9
Posts: 659
| | Re: | | priceless brother ryan, priceless |
| | 2009/6/4 12:04 | Profile | ginnyrose
Member
Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi
| | Re: fed up with the constant irrational slander from the humanists. | | Quote:
The natural bent of our unredeemed flesh is absolutely wedded to an irrational a priori commitment to the philosophical humanist presupposition of final self determining universal libertarian autonomy which renders GOD a helpless failure who is incapable of accomplishing His purposes in the affairs of men apart from coaxing them to give Him permission.
Too bad your English teacher did not make you diagram this sentence before posting it here on SI. {{SIGH}}
ginnyrose
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Sandra Miller
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| | 2009/6/5 23:49 | Profile | Miccah
Member
Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin
| | Re: | | Quote:
Too bad your English teacher did not make you diagram this sentence before posting it here on SI. {{SIGH}}
ginnyrose
lol. I am SO guilty of this in my everyday life. I cannot tell you how many times I have wrote something out, posted it, then looked back and said, "what a buffoon I am!" lol. I'll probably do it after this post as well! 8-)
We serve a good God. That I am sure. But do we fear Him?
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Christiaan
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| | 2009/6/6 0:27 | Profile | ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi
| | Re: | | Miccah,
You did not post the original on this thread...
But anyhow, this opening paragraph is so long, it wearies one trying to understand what is even meant. One has to go to the rest of the post to get a fair idea. In fact the longer you read, the simplier the structure.
This complicated paragraph reminded me what the scripture says about "great swelling words." It is always used in connection with deception. Jude 1:16 and 2 Peter 2:18.
Jesus, who is God, the creator of all seen and unseen, who knows the hearts of people, understands all languages, all vocabulary, spoke simply so all could understand. He made sure his listeners [i]knew[/i] what he meant, that no doubts lingered. If there were questions and they asked him about it, he explained it. (He did say he spoke in parables to keep the blind blind. But his overall mission was to minister to all.) Seems to me Christians who are interested in communicating God's truth would take lessons.
Quote:
I'll probably do it after this post as well!
One can read your post quickly and know exactly was is meant! Loved it! :-) (BTW, ever notice Enid's posts? she is brief, to the point, wastes no words.(I love it!) Who knows? maybe someday I will advance to that level in communications! :-)
ginnyrose
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Sandra Miller
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| | 2009/6/6 9:51 | Profile | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: The debate of debates | | Quote:
I do not attempt to label a preacher one way or the other when I listen to him. But having knowledge of the Bible and an understanding of basic doctrines allows me to ascertain his theological convictions rather easily and without conscious effort. A lot of folks today have retreated to some hypothetical haven of middle ground and dodge any scripture that could possible lead to him being identified with either camp. I believe many do this under the guise of peace keeper when often times the reasoning is to simply not offend potential followers or lose any they already have.
Tricky business there ... Understanding this to be so -
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
I would probably add that it doesn't infer [i]blessed are the compromisers[/i]. Your point is well taken TJ and being of the sort of mind of a middle-ground by 'nature', as by duty (here) it boils out into conduct and disposition. The whole trouble as I see it has to do with the 'camps' themselves and moreover the [i]hard-line[/i] stances that as the Spurgeon quote so well stated - Has each other throwing dust into the eyes never recognizing the disposition that compels the hand to scoop it up in the first place ...
Really the only reason to jump into this was to slightly disagree with a mention here;
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Although I appreciate what hmmhmm is doing in trying to get int3grity to see that there is truth on both sides I will only write just one post to say that I pray for you int3grity to really experience God without any bitterness, to get in your bible to minister His Word without the trappings of mens limited understandings. [b]Most of these types of threads are fruitless and grieving to the Holy Spirit[/b] and as I said before this will be my last post because I will not grieve the Holy Spirit of my God.
"Most" - Certainly. This one however may be the best collection of ... "how to go about it" that has ever graced these pages (no pun intended).
I think there is a world of difference between reconcile and compromise, between having convictions and [i]forcing[/i] them, between restraint, refrain and those words that seem to be very much underneath or inside the disposition which was pointed out above -
[i]without any bitterness[/i]
I am pretty well convinced that the scriptures were presented in such a way (to borrow from Wesley) that the [i]expression[/i] of them would be just as they are - Different! And the test as it were would be just how well we deal with each other over the extrapolations of those same articulations.
As TJ pointed out, there are differences, absolutely, unequivocally and I think a certain, generic generality of "Would the Lord approve?" of so much squabbling and strife might be too vanilla, maybe the better question would be - "Would you be so obstinate and vicious in your opinion in His presence, if He were within arms reach - If he were typing along side us?"
That is not happening here thankfully, but appealing to the same known general overdose that is predominant when this subject is broached.
A recent mention -
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=29031&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=0]Reformed from what?[/url]
[i][b]John Newton and the English Evangelical Tradition: Between the Conversions of Wesley and Wilberforce[/b][/i] -
D. Bruce Hindmarsh
I could not recommend more highly, redundantly, due to the treatment of this long running debate - Because it is not direct but more indirect it gives you a snapshot, at least of that era of where these men differed yet still managed to not only get along but to dispel much of what has become, in my mind mere folklore and misrepresentation of the two 'warring factions'.
It is a bit ironic and seemingly contradictory to say so ... Because there was certainly a great deal of rhetoric and ill-will, strife and contention between the 'Established church' and that of Wesley and the Morivians for instance, But along comes an Edwards of a very reformed upbringing and background [i]wiling[/i] and able to bridge the gap in many ways and never lose his bearings or his real convictions. Go figure!
The whole point and long running suspicion is that there is much more than mets the eye with many of these men - Charles Simeon comes to mind, Tozer (As pointed out, who [i]everyone[/i] appeals to - again - Go figure!) even in our day a Paul Washer who, taken apart on one sermon could easily be humbled by yet another - Keith Daniel ... Zac Poonen ...
What I do think happens even subconsciously is a sort of embedded-ness that can have one looking over their shoulder and tends to color everything they absorb by the settings of certain constructs when they are presented in such an ironclad, 'hard-line' fashion. If you are going to be stuck on 5 points and feed everything through that funnel you are generally going to get the results you anticipate. The opposite being just as true.
Applying it to those participating here over the years - TJ and Hmmmmm as just two great examples - Often misunderstood - Just as often 'labeled' by their convictions and sometimes sorely chastised by that old English word, [i]meanness[/i] which now means something else entirely. My point? They both 'get it' as did so many before them, those and many others mentioned above.
Quote:
lol. I am SO guilty of this in my everyday life. I cannot tell you how many times I have wrote something out, posted it, then looked back and said, "what a buffoon I am!" lol. I'll probably do it after this post as well!
You stole my thunder brother - Hence the recent silence. Guess I had a ramble all bottled up for awhile now ... it's been an interesting and difficult year so far.
I applaud you all for your handling of this often hostile subject matter.
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Mike Balog
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| | 2009/6/6 9:56 | Profile | tjservant
Member
Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA
| | Re: | | Quote:
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. I would probably add that it doesn't infer blessed are the compromisers.
Once again you have summed up quite nicely (with your entire post and not just the above quote) what I think many of us feel and believe about this issue. I see the point of contention arising from the fact that both sides view the other as compromising to some degree.
So, I believe many folks are attempting to make peace with people they believe to be compromisers. Tricky, for many believe that the opposing views must be refuted or they will be guilty of compromise themselves.
Though they may long for peace, but compromising, by remaining silent about what they believe to be an attack on the very Gospel itself, is not an option. Many simply fall back on the old, agree to disagree motto. It usually works just fine, especially when you know you are right and they are wrong. :-)
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I think there is a world of difference between reconcile and compromise, between having convictions and forcing them, between restraint, refrain...
Very true. I pray for His grace in all these areas.
Quote:
...there are differences, absolutely, unequivocally and I think a certain, generic generality of "Would the Lord approve?" of so much squabbling and strife might be too vanilla, maybe the better question would be - "Would you be so obstinate and vicious in your opinion in His presence, if He were within arms reach - If he were typing along side us?"
I am glad you brought this up. I pray to always be aware of being in HIS presence when typing my replies. But I must admit that I have not always been successful in this endeavor.( Did I really need to even include that sentence? :-) ) I wish it were not true but the sad reality must be faced...I simply fall short. I ask you all for your prayers in dying to self to an even greater degree...complete death.
I, personally, think the Apostle Paul would have taken a stand on the issue. That may very well be because I believe he already did and his side is clear to me. :-)
I disagree with parts of brother Christians (hmmhmm) theology, but I consider him a brother and would never not click on his posts. I have learned much from him and am sure I will continue to do so. He is an example of what it is to be gracious...an example I am learning from.
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TJ
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| | 2009/6/6 12:06 | Profile | hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden
| | Re: | | well , :-) the part of me being gracious maybe true, but you really should ask my wife about that, but seriously i to see many of my reformed five point brethren as precious, even tho i know they are wrong ( :-P ) i still recognize i can learn much from them in doctrine and life. And i am persuaded that Finney could have found things that he thought to be true and holy in Spurgeons preaching and vice versa. I find faults in both mens preaching but can still be blessed and driven to my knees by both, and often as i have thought about this and prayed to the Lord i have more then once had a sense that God may have designed this by purpose, not for the "battle" of the "whos right" , but to show us, our ungraciousness, our "we know it best" sides, the subtleness of religious pride ect, it is fully possible to be right in all the correct doctrine and be proud of that i am not one of those deceived ones. and somehow in this seeming twoside discussion, a lot such things have been revealed to me for myself, and that is precious, if i do something about it, if it where not for this issue i never would have noticed some of the corruptions inside, i could never have cleansed these out. I am far from clean in this yett, but i have seen it and working on it by gods grace and his power i hope to one day , whether calvinist or arminian or a wishy washy middle man
;-) , that I in truth can say i have no such pride or bitter thoughts and motives towards anyone, and to be clean like this inside i think is one keystone of humility, blessed are the meek....
learn from me.... (jesus)
but also i recognize the thin line between compromise, and its hard, often times this is loaded with feelings and passions, for most of us have a passion for truth and for the word and for correct doctrine, this is very important to us even if we see them differently, so in a sense, many times i been just broken over what this debate has caused and what it has cost christianity over the ages, we will never know, but on tthe other hand i am thankful for it, since it has allowed me to spot something inside me that is a seed towards pride and religion, and pride is the gate to hell.
God is good in reviling these things, cant remember where i heard it, but it was one methodist preacher one generation after wesley if i am not mistaken, when he died even his "worst" enemies of doctrinal sort, spoke at his funeral and could say no evil about this man because his life was so filled with God, he was the most holy man that he had ever seen, i will try remember where i found that story and post it, but we have wesley and withfield i think it was, at the funeral, their grace and love even tho they had some heated letter correspondence and preaching that seem obvius what they preach against and for.
But in the end, they where brothers, may God work such an heart in us also. I am sure even if TJ have some small things against my theology and i against his, i am truly truly convinced if we where ever to meet we could have the sweetest kind of fellowship this side of the Glory.
isent it wonderful?
Gods grace and peace to all my five pointer brethren, from your one point brother
PS: you know you need come to sweden and teach five points? i suspect the lack of calvinist here in sweden is to the fact we have no modern word that is used for the word grace :-) so i suspect that is one reason calvinism hasent seen its days here since Spurgeons days, anyway....
I appreciate this thread and you all brethren... TJ, Mike.... Gods peace overflow your hearts brethren
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CHRISTIAN
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| | 2009/6/6 12:47 | Profile |
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