| In defence of the traditional view of 'new birth'.|
I am asking: is there any scriptural justification for extrapolating backwards from the time of Christ, to declare that Old Testament saints were actually [u]born again[/u]?
[i]Christ, by highest Heavn adored;
Christ the everlasting Lord;
Late in time, behold Him come,
Offspring of a virgins womb.
Veiled in flesh the Godhead see;
Hail thincarnate Deity,
Pleased with us in flesh to dwell,
Jesus our Emmanuel.
Hail the heavnly Prince of Peace!
Hail the Sun of Righteousness!
Light and life to all He brings,
Risn with healing in His wings.
Mild He lays His glory by,
Born that man no more may die.
Born to raise the sons of earth,
[b]Born to give them second birth[/b]
Come, Desire of nations, come,
Fix in us Thy humble home;
Rise, the womans conquring Seed,
Bruise in us the serpents head.
Now display Thy saving power,
Ruined nature now restore;
Now in mystic union join
Thine to ours, and ours to Thine.
Adams likeness, Lord, efface,
Stamp Thine image in its place:
Second Adam from above,
Reinstate us in Thy love.
Let us Thee, though lost, regain,
Thee, the Life, the inner man:
O, to all Thyself impart,
Formed in each believing heart.
In another thread, KingJimmy opened his post with this sentence.
[b][i]'Noah wasn't merely a preacher of righteousness, he was righteous, and found favor with God. If God declares you righteous, you cannot help but become born again, no matter what dispensation you were born under.'[/i][/b]
As Noah was before Abraham, Moses and the Law, it seems Paul may have summed up the basis of his righteousness in [color=003366]Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.[/color]
What say ye all?
| 2009/5/28 6:39|
| Re: In defence of the traditional view of 'new birth'.|
One does not see this term "Born again" used in the OT. Jesus introduced this term during his ministry on earth.
"Born Again" implies regeneration, the making of something new, on being reborn - that of putting off and putting on the new. This concept was not understood in the OT. Nor was it possible because the Holy Spirit - that now dwells within - was the ONE who facilitated this process, and keeps it going. In the OT the Holy Spirit's mission was different. Back then He was 'upon' a person, not 'in' a Believer.
In Romans 4:1-25 it teaches us that what made the Believers righteous was faith, Abraham being a prime example: he believed in God and it was counted to him for righteousness. This concept is still operative today. The difference is we can have the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit to enable us, who is changing us from glory to glory. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
As one reads Romans 4, we learn that the act of obedience is what earned Abraham the title of righteousness, but not the result of obedience. Splitting hairs, actually, but it is a major difference.
This is the way I understand it. But one that is refreshing to think about. We can get so frustrated at times in our serving the LORD, feel as though we fail so miserably...but it is love, devotion and a willingness to obey that will endear us to Him. He wants sheep that will follow willingly, not goats that are contrary.(Actually, ever have any experience with goats and sheep? Sheep are kind of dumb, passive, not all that exciting, really. But goats are so entertaining! No kidding! They get into awkward places and then "BBBAAA" for all the world to hear/beg to come to their rescue! and they will eat scrubby vegetation. If you have a place overgrown with brush, put in a flock of goats and they will clean it up. This is in contrast to sheep who are picky eaters.)
| 2009/5/28 7:28||Profile|
| Re: |
Excellent post, Ginnyrose!
Permit me to ask the question [devils advocate here] If the Blood of Jesus alone redeems and one believes that, why is the issue of "born again" placed into the equation as we suppose it is for salvation? In this I am assuming Nicodemus was justified by his faith in God, per Romans 5.1 with peace with God still something he could not enjoy since the cross needed to happen. Had he died before hand, that peace would not have been actualized for him to benefit. I hope I am being clear in my question. Please think this through before answering to consider that the Blood, cleanses mankind from the sin [penalty] of Adam's transgression. Is it necessary for something to indwell us, for that to be *"actualized"?
*Two words I use a lot for making distinctions: "reality" and "actuality". They require pondering.
| 2009/5/28 8:04|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: |
The other similar post was locked for a reason ...
| 2009/5/28 8:56||Profile|