| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
Job 42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
Job 42:9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.
--- the three friends that needed to repent of [make sacrifice for] their words. Elihu Not Included.
There isn't a scholar in history that hasn't written that Elihu was Correct - because Job "justified himself before GOD - at GOD's expense."
I've wondered since posting this if I stated what I did within this last line Understandably enough or not.
Elihu Was Correct - he was Not named among Job's three friends that needed to repent of their words because as any commentator will show - Job had a bit of pride that GOD did deal with and Elihu was a bit disturbed with the other three friends for their error and out of politeness, being the youngest, waited until the three plus Job had finished speaking to "Defend GOD".
Hope that's clearer now. :-? |
|  2009/5/29 11:31 | |
| | Re: OT Born Again Example | | Hi Jeff,
I think it interesting that Elihu means 'He is my God'; and he came from a place called Ramathaim-zophim = "double height of the watchers".
I have no dispute with manifestations of Elohim in the OT; I don't doubt that Job, contemporary with Noah, Melchizedek and Abraham, had revelation.... Until the golden calf, there is reason to believe men saw God (Exo 24:10, 11). This is why Moses' face shone (Exo 34:33 - 35), and there is blessing associated with the face of God (Num 6:24 - 26), which becomes ours as we look Jesus in the face (2 Cor 3:18) through the Holy Spirit: Rom 5:2, Eph 2:18 - 20.
Although the concept of 'church' (Acts 7:38) began in the OT, and all they as we, will experience resurrection, there was still a need for the Messiah to come in every detail of the fulness of prophecy, show Himself as 'that Prophet' whom Moses foretold, and give a whole new terminology to the way His own people perceived God, described their relationship with Him, and, ministered to Him. So veiled was His glory, that when Peter answered a question correctly - Matthew 16:17. Also John 6:68.
Now, Job may have felt the same way about God, but Peter wasn't born again when he said those things, (and we assume he had repented, because his brother Andrew had been a follower of John the Baptist, and knew he (Peter) would want to follow the Messiah - John 1:40, 41).
Jesus was outside of him. We cannot honestly make the picture of their conversations say something (or anything) else. Luke 22:32. The reason we need the Holy Spirit [i][b]inside[/i][/b] us, is we need His resurrection - that Christ may dwell in our hearts by faith (Eph 3:17 to end of chapter), because we are baptised into His death.
Job 42:6, [color=330099]11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold. 12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning:[/color]
And that's as far as he got.
[color=006699]John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, [u]and shall be in you[/u]. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, [u]and ye in me, and I in you[/u]. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him...
29 [b]And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe[/b].[/color]
It's okay if you don't see the differences I'm pointing out, but I would still like you to lay our your case in your own words with scripture references, and answer the questions in my first post, to give the detail of how you personally believe Job's experience matches the terms of the New Covenant for us. I really would appreciate if you would make the time to do this.
:-) |
| | 2009/5/29 11:41 | | JoanM
Member
Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797
| | Re: What reserection will Job see | | Job probably got a bit more than is mentioned. Will Job not see the resurrection and see his children there also, specifically those who perished in one day. How else will he have [b]double[/b] of what he lost. Reading Job 42:10-17.
I have not studied the massive writings by the Rabbis but I would not be surprised if this point, regarding Job, , was not one of the reasons some did believe in the resurrection of the dead.
Jesus addressed, if not fully answered, the original question in this thread when He was examined by those that said there is no ressurection. And He said,reminding them of what God said in their Scriptures (Matthew 22:32): I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are living/will be living and He is their God. I am thinking they were living when Jesus spoke and living when God spoke.
Of course covenants are distictive. And there are similarities. Just adding to the discussion. |
| | 2009/5/29 16:25 | Profile | rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN
| | Re: | | Brother Benjamin wrote:
Quote:
Jeff, can you show anywhere else in scripture Elihu's testimony is true. Can you find anywhere God confirmed Elihu's Testimony?
Verse 3: Our hearts deceive us. And He said MY WORDS...not God's words, or the Spirit of the Lord is upon me to say this to you.
Verse 4: is true for all
Verse 5: Who made Elihu Job's Judge and Jury?
Verse 6: NO ONE is our spokesman before God except Jesus Christ.
Verse 7: Just exactly who does Elihu think he is?
In the following Scriptures Elihu says this to Job 33:
8 Surely you have spoken in my hearing,
And I have heard the sound of your words, saying,
9 I am pure, without transgression;
I am innocent, and there is no iniquity in me.
10 Yet He finds occasions against me,
He counts me as His enemy;
11 He puts my feet in the stocks,
He watches all my paths.
12 Look, in this you are not righteous.
I will answer you,
For God is greater than man.
13 Why do you contend with Him?
Now read what God has to say to Job...
Job 40:
1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said:
2 Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him?
He who rebukes God, let him answer it.
Also
Job 40
8 Would you indeed annul My judgment?
Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?
In these Scriptures God confirms Elihu's words. If you follow through the thoughts spoken by Elihu especially beginning with Job 36:22 through Job 37:24, and then listen to the words spoken by God out of the whirlwind, you will see the contents of Elihu's words in God's speech to Job.
In terms of your comment from James, this is getting off track to the current conversation. I am trying to focus on what we might learn from Elihu's words. Especially the words that speak to how God calls upon men and women, how God works to turn men from their wickedness so that they might be enlightened with the light of life.
In Christ
Jeff
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Jeff Marshalek
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| | 2009/5/30 8:06 | Profile | rookie
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| | Re: | | Jesus-is-God asked:
Quote:
Would you consider all of Hebrews 11 and focus then on the end verses.
Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
Paul writes...
Rom. 4:13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
Rom. 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.
The covenant given to Moses on Mount Sinai was not given to the nation of Israel so that they might, in the flesh, please God. Rather, the covenant of Moses was given so that those who were under the law might recognize their sin and the hopelessness of their plight according to the flesh. The law was given so that they might be taught the way leading to Christ. Those who lived by faith before the incarnation of Christ found the way leading to Christ.
Heb. 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
Paul writes...
Rom. 10:8 But what does it say? The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
Rom. 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
In Hebrews 11 we find examples given of men and women who heard God speak and then obeyed. This interaction between God and men caused men to hope for something better than this world has to offer. The faithful walk of these believers showed that they learned of a hope that far surpasses the covenant of Moses. For we have this testimony...
Heb. 11:24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaohs daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.
We have this testimony that Moses' hopes were centered on Christ, and that "he looked to the reward."
Yet there were others who did not receive the promise...
Heb. 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
So I swore in My wrath,
They shall not enter My rest, although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
In this testimony during the time of Moses, others did not obey the "gospel" that was preached to them. "The word which they heard did not profit them." Why, because they did not follow the commands of the Lord, the Holy One of Israel.
Well then, what promise had they not received?
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb. 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Here it says that Abraham waited for the city which has foundations whose builder and maker is God.
Heb. 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Their hope for this "city" overcame their desire for the things of Egypt.
For we find this testimony...
14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
All of these faithful had to wait for Christ to rise first.
Jesus said of Himself...
Luke 13:32 And He said to them, Go, tell that fox, Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 33 Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem.
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! 35 See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!
In verse 32, Jesus says that when He rises from the dead, He then will be "perfected."
So we have this verse at the end of Hebrews 11...
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us,
that they without us should not be made perfect.
The blood of bulls could not accomplish what the blood of Christ
has done. Without death, there could be no life. The blood of Christ confirmed the promise given to Abraham and to all who live by faith. The OT saints could not be made perfect without us because Christ had to rise first.
In Christ
Jeff
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Jeff Marshalek
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| | 2009/5/30 9:26 | Profile | rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
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| | Re: | | Sis wrote:
Quote:
It's okay if you don't see the differences I'm pointing out, but I would still like you to lay our your case in your own words with scripture references,
This is my testimony according to the Scriptures found in Job 33.
In the first part of Elihu's words, he describes the ways God uses to turn men from their wickedness. In my case, this verse is applicable...
14 For God may speak in one way, or in another,
Yet man does not perceive it.
One day 13 years ago, I was working in my garden and contemplating how I should raise my 3 year old son. I myself had been raised in a strict greek catholic home. But over the course of time, through my college years and then my journey to California I had gone off the deep end which was centered in drug use and seeking satisfaction in the ways of the world. I had not considered God for 20 years.
As I thought to myself, I should expose my son to religion because I owed it to him, to give him a well rounded education, these words came to my mind....
"How can you teach him about Me, when you do not know Me?"
I realized at that moment that God had spoken to me. My heart swelled up in me...I was dumbfounded.
A couple of days later again working in the garden, an old man came walking up the road and invited me to attend church at a small conservative baptist church. So our family began attending this church. About a month later, I was harassed by two men of the church who kept asking me to go with them to a Promise Keeper's event in the LA Colliseum (sp?) So I gave in and went with them. During this time, I responded to the altar call given by Jack Hayford, a foursquare pastor in the LA area.
For two weeks I cried as I listened to the songs that we sang those days at that event. That was a wonderful time, I had been given a new song to sing, not as the world sings.
So the words spoken by Elihu resonate in my life...
14 For God may speak in one way, or in another,
Yet man does not perceive it.
And then...
23 If there is a messenger for him,
A mediator, one among a thousand,
To show man His uprightness,
24 Then He is gracious to him, and says,
Deliver him from going down to the Pit;
I have found a ransom;
Those 3 men were used by God to turn me towards Him.
Likewise my wife's testimony is found in the words of Elihu's...
For her shortly after my repentance, she was diagnosed with breast cancer. She cried out to God for the reason why this had occurred. During that time, God sent a woman to minister to her. He also sent a group of believers to encourage us in times of prayers on many Sunday evenings in the home of one of the believers. This is when my wife repented. I see this event centered in the words of Elihu...
19 Man is also chastened with pain on his bed,
And with strong pain in many of his bones,
20 So that his life abhors bread,
And his soul succulent food.
21 His flesh wastes away from sight,
And his bones stick out which once were not seen.
22 Yes, his soul draws near the Pit,
And his life to the executioners.
And then God sent His messengers...
23 If there is a messenger for him,
A mediator, one among a thousand,
To show man His uprightness,
24 Then He is gracious to him, and says,
Deliver him from going down to the Pit;
I have found a ransom;
In verse 24, God says this..."Deliver him from going down to the Pit, I have found a ransom."
In this verse God has found a ransom....is this not Christ?
In the next verse we find this testimony...
25 His flesh shall be young like a childs,
He shall return to the days of his youth.
I can testify that I returned to my youth...I began to learn of a new way to live. I began to see hope grown in me by God for something more than this world had offered for the last 20 plus years.
26 He shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,
He shall see His face with joy,
For He restores to man His righteousness.
Through following Him I continued to see my foolishness and ignorance that had corrupted me. And as I learn, I see "His righteousness" which brings joy to my life in ways that the world could never do.
And because of this relationship I also am seeing this worked out in my life...
27 Then he looks at men and says,
I have sinned, and perverted what was right,
And it did not profit me.
I too say to others that I had perverted what was right, and that this perversion brought only sorrow.
And as I follow, in the ups and downs of my walk, I have recognized this as I continue to feed on the whole counsel of God...
28 He will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit,
And his life shall see the light.
And...
30 To bring back his soul from the Pit,
That he may be enlightened with the light of life.
When I find a believer...I often ask he or she, how was it that God brought you to repentance?
And it is always an "old old story" that Amy Crosby once penned.
The Holy One of Israel is His name.
In Christ
Jeff
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Jeff Marshalek
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| | 2009/5/30 10:19 | Profile | rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
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| | Re: Jeff | | Brother Neil wrote:
Quote:
I had that revealed to me by the Holy Spirit.
When I was a new believer some Jehovah Witnesses attacked my stand on the doctrine of the Trinity. I prayed for God to give me assurance that this doctrine was true. He did that day, and has continued to reveal the Trinity that was, is now , and ever will be.
God Bless
Your brother in HaMelach Adonai,
Jeff
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Jeff Marshalek
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| | 2009/5/30 10:28 | Profile | rookie
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| | Re: | | Sister Joan wrote:
Quote:
I have not studied the massive writings by the Rabbis but I would not be surprised if this point, regarding Job, , was not one of the reasons some did believe in the resurrection of the dead.
Job 19:
23 Oh, that my words were written!
Oh, that they were inscribed in a book!
24 That they were engraved on a rock
With an iron pen and lead, forever!
25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;
26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
27 Whom I shall see for myself,
And my eyes shall behold, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
Job spoke of the resurrection to come.
In Christ
Jeff
_________________
Jeff Marshalek
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| | 2009/5/30 10:33 | Profile |
| | Re: OT Born Again Example | | Hi Jeff,
You still have not shown how the OT saints were 'born again'.
They were physically dead when Christ came to earth, and already able to 'see' Him. John 8:56
When Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus He was talking to a [u]live[/u] person. How can a physically dead person be baptised in the Spirit, or filled with the Spirit - born again?
They have no need of such empowering for the overcoming of sin or for the word of their testimony of Christ.
They didn't have a regenerate heart during their lifetime, and now they are already freed through faith during their life, and through their natural death, from the bondage into which Adam brought the whole human race. Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
What am I not seeing?
Is this simply a matter of terminology - that [i]you want to call them 'born again'[/i], and I don't think that's applicable to their experience of having lived with an unregenerate heart?
|
| | 2009/5/30 10:56 | | Miccah
Member
Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin
| | Re: | |
Alive-to-God wrote:
Quote:
You still have not shown how the OT saints were 'born again'.
They were physically dead when Christ came to earth, and already able to 'see' Him. John 8:56
When Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus He was talking to a [u]live[/u] person. How can a physically dead person be baptised in the Spirit, or filled with the Spirit - born again?
They have no need of such empowering for the overcoming of sin or for the word of their testimony of Christ.
They didn't have a regenerate heart during their lifetime, and now they are already freed through faith during their life, and through their natural death, from the bondage into which Adam brought the whole human race. Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
What am I not seeing?
Is this simply a matter of terminology - that [i]you want to call them 'born again'[/i], and I don't think that's applicable to their experience of having lived with an unregenerate heart?
Luke 1:13-15 (NKJV)
But the angel said to him, Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. [b]He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mothers womb.[/b]
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| | 2009/5/30 11:07 | Profile |
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