| Poster | Thread | KingJimmy
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| | The "Mystery" | | Thought this might be an interesting discussion... what is "the mystery" of Ephesians & Colossians?
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Jimmy H
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|  2003/8/16 20:51 | Profile | KingJimmy
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| | Re: The "Mystery" | | Eph 3:4-6 NASB
By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel
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Jimmy H
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| | 2003/8/16 21:08 | Profile | sermonindex
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Online! | | Re: | | The english word "mystery" is the transilteration of the Greek word [i]musterion[/i], which means [b]a sacred secret[/b].
Here are all the occourences of the word mystery in the epistle to the ephesians:
"Having made known unto us the mystery of His will" - Ephesians 1:9
"How that by revelation He made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)" - Ephesians 3:3-4
"And to make all [i]men[/i] see what [i]is[/i] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:" - Ephesians 3:9
"This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." - Ephesians 5:32
"And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldy, to make know the mystery of the gospel," - Ephesians 6:19
Here are all the occourences of the word mystery in the epistle to the colossians:
"[i]Even[/i] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to His saints, To whom God would make known what [i]is[/i] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" - Colossians 1:26,27
"That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ," - Colossians 2:2
"Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds;" - Colossians 4:3
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| | 2003/8/16 22:35 | Profile | sermonindex
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Online! | | Re: | | ----------------------------
This is part of Appendix 193 From The [b]Companion Bible[/b]:
It is evident to all that God has made known His will "at sundry times and in divers manners" (Hebrews 1:1,2). He also kept certain things secret, and revealed them from time to time according to His purpose and counsels. Hence the word musterion is connected with several concealed or secret things in the New Testament.
1. It was used of the secrets of the kingdom; which had been concealed, until the Lord revealed them to His disciples (not to the People) in Matthew 13:10,11. It had not before been known that the kingdom would be rejected, and that there would be a long interval between that rejection and its being set up in glory. This was concealed even from the prophets who foretold it (1Peter 1:10-12).
2. In Romans 11 it is used in connection with the duration of Israel's blindness. That blindness itself was not a secret, for it had been foretold in Isaiah 6:9,10. But the duration of the blindness was kept a "secret" from Isaiah and only revealed through Paul (Romans 11:25).
3. It was used of a fact connected with resurrection, which had never before been made known to the sons of men.
4. Side by side with these Divine secrets there was the secret of the [foretold] lawlessness (2Thessalonians 2:7 compare Daniel 12:4). It was already working during the dispensation covered by "Acts"; and had the nation repented at the call of those "other servants" of Matthew 22:4 (Acts 2:38; 3:12-26; etc.), those secret counsels of "the lawless one" and "the transgressors" would have "come to the full" (Daniel 8:23). But now they are postponed and in abeyance until the appointed time.
5. But "the great secret" which concerns us to-day was not revealed until after the close of that dispensation covered by "Acts". (See Acts 28:17-31)
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I don't totally agree with all of the ways E.W. Bullinger seperates the idea of 'mystery' but I think its is helpful to glean some insight from his breakdown. I would think it would be better to elaborate on his third point, which should include the idea of the indwelling of Christ in our hearts as a mystery also.
"...the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you..."
"...This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."
I think that 'Christ in you' is most profound and stirring mystery in the Scriptures. And its instresting to note what signifies us as being part of the body of Christ (the church) is the indwelling spirit of Christ. And as the scripture states above that this union between Christ and the Church, the Head and the Body, The Foundation and the Building is a GREAT mystery!
I am not sure what bullinger means by his 5th point. hmmm.
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| | 2003/8/17 2:04 | Profile | philologos
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| | Re:sshhhhhh | | the full list is
# Mt 13:11
# Mr 4:11
# Lu 8:10
# Ro 11:25 16:25
# 1Co 2:7 4:1 13:2 14:2 15:51
# Eph 1:9 3:3,4,9 5:32 6:19
# Col 1:26,27 2:2 4:3
# 2Th 2:7
# 1Ti 3:9,16
# Re 1:20 10:7 17:5,7
It was a word used in the 'mystery' religions where it signified a 'secret' which would only be revealed as the the 'seeker' was initiated into various levels of the religion. (very similar to Freemasonry today) A 'mystery' was undiscoverable but had to be revealed. The word has absolutely nothing to do with the way we use the word in modern speech i.e. mysterious, meaning inexplicable. In NT Christianity God is the initiator; He does not delegate this prerogative to 'priests' or 'scribes' (priests are intermediaries, scribes are word experts.)
It is the root word behind 'mime' wordless acting, and 'keeping mum' (do you have that idiom across the water?) meaning to keep a secret by staying silent. The mystics were (and are) people who cannot express their experience in words ; the problem is that so many of them have tried to.
For the Christian it is a word that reminds us of our constant need for 'revelation' i.e. God's personal unveiling of hidden/secret things. We live 'not by bread alone but my every word the IS PROCEEDING out of the mouth of God.'
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2003/8/17 2:25 | Profile | philologos
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| | Re: The "Mystery" | | In a phrase, the mystery is the 'new man'. Jew and Gentiles seemlessly united into one body. Thoughts to pursue are...
"are the Gentiles added to an old body; ie the Jews?" In which case it would be an 'old man' with some new additions.
"what is the 'old man' of Romans 6:6 and 'the body of death'?
Modern translations persist in interpreting rather than translating this verse. The consequence is that we then have no comparison for the 'new man'. Our 'old self' and 'old nature' are modern psychological terms and have no bibical provenance.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2003/8/17 2:39 | Profile | philologos
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| | Re: Bullinger and Hyper Dispensationalism | | "I am not sure what bullinger means by his 5th point. hmmm." (your quote.)
This is Bullinger's dispensationalism at work. You will note that he regards the period of the Acts as a 'dispensation' which was followed by another dispensation. In fact he identifies different dispensations within the period of the Acts.
The prevailing thought of Bullinger's dispensationalism is man's failure. This failure was demonstrated in the church under Peter, Jerusalem based. For Bullinger Peter was a failure. (When I have 'failed' as successfully as Peter I am going to start to criticise him. Meanwhile I am going to remain 'mystic' i.e. keep my mouth shut) The expansionist period of Acts was also ultimately a failure and a new dispensation is to be seem in Paul's prison letters which introduce the mystery of the church. Ultimately this dispensation failed too which brings us to Darby's 'ruined church' scenario. Bullinger believed the absence of reference to elders in 2 Timothy was proof that the church on earth had failed again and that Paul in writing to Timothy was passing the baton to individuals rather than 'the church'.
One particularly dangerous aspect of dispensationalism of this nature is that it produces a 'bible within the bible' as earlier portions of the scripture are no longer as 'relevant' as dispensations change. This is often repeated by preachers who tell us that Paul had a unique revelation of the church. He was unique in that God chose him to capture the truth but Ephesians 3:5 tells us that this mystery was 'revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the spirit'.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2003/8/17 2:57 | Profile |
| | Re: Bullinger and Hyper Dispensationalism | | Quote:
5. But "the great secret" which concerns us to-day was not revealed until after the close of that dispensation covered by "Acts". (See Acts 28:17-31)
I agree with Philologus on this one. It is Bullinger's hyper-dispensational views that cause him to see the start of the mystery as after Acts 28:17-31.
The Mystery is the truth regarding the one body made up of both Jews and Gentiles. The revelation of the mystery although revealed to the holy apostles and prophets of the church age, was especially commissioned to Paul. One aspect of the mystery is the "heavenly" nature of the church as opposed to an earthly people. It is what ultimately distinguishes the church from the Jewish system. I think this is where many people, even some on this board, make a mistake because they cannot see and distinguish the "unique" calling of the Church but instead want to see the Church as a continuation of the Jewish system but now with Gentiles within. This makes the Church an earthly entity. They fail to see that all believers of all ages will be saved on the basis of faith but all believers of all ages do not comprise the body of Christ, which is unique to this dispensation. For those of you who oppose the word dispensation may I remind you that in Ephesians 3:9 the word translated as "administration" can also be translated as "dispensation". It is obvious to even a casual observer that the Church has not just replaced Israel or become Israel, but has superceded Israel in the economy of God. The Church is the Bride of Christ and the Church is comprised of all who are born of the Spirit and immersed into the body of Christ. Failure to see the distinction of Jew, Gentile and the Church of God(1 Cor. 10:32) and God's unique ways of dealing with each brings in confusion.
To get back to Bullinger's, view I disagree with Bullinger on when the mystery came into existence because I would push it back to Acts chapter two and the day of Pentecost when the Church was born by the coming of the Spirit as sent by the Father and the Son. The uniqueness of this dispensation is the preparing of a helpmate for Christ. The one body, which is His Bride, is what He gave Himself for (Eph. 5:25). Another aspect of the mystery is that we are Christ here, as united to Him, in a scene where He has been rejected, but this is not our home and He is coming back to take us to Himself. Wonderful prospect!
Kevin
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| | 2003/8/17 16:00 | | KingJimmy
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| | Re: | | Here is how I see things (though I would not yet say I am dogmatic about all of it): Forgive me if I seem rather blunt here, as I could make this post horriably long.
Believers in all ages have been saved by grace through faith. Believers in all ages have been born again, from above. All can confess with David "I am a stranger in the earth" (Ps 119:19). Believers in all ages have had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit- and to be specific "the Spirit of Christ within them" (1 Peter 1:11).
Because of these things, believers (Jew and Foreigner) of all ages have had an intimate relationship with God. And if they have had an intimate relationship with God, and fellowship with Him, then surely they are partakers with eachother (1 John 1:7). Thus, believing foreigners during the Old Testament are part of His people, Israel. Here is some testimony from the Old Testament regarding this:
Isaiah 56:3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely separate me from His people." ...
Psalm 87:4-6 I shall mention Rahab and Babylon among those who know Me; Behold, Philistia and Tyre with Ethiopia: 'This one was born there.' But of Zion it shall be said, 'This one and that one were born in her'; And the most High Himself will establish her. The Lord will count when He registers the peoples, 'This one was born there.'
We also have to understand, it is with Israel that both the Old and New Covenants have been made. Remember Jeremiah's prophecy:
Jeremiah 31:31 'Behold, days are coming,' declares the Lord, 'when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah'
If it is with physical house Israel and Judah (which would become one house again after Judah's return from exile) in which the New Covenant was made, then it must be said that all Gentile believers, like the previous covenant, become partakers in the "commonwealth of Israel" (Eph 2:12).
Also, at the same time, we must understand that just because one is physically a Jew, does not mean one is truly a descendant of Abraham. Just as Paul said, "For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants" (Romans 9:6-7). Romans 11 spends a good deal of time talking about this.
To sum up that great chapter: to be part of Israel one must do so by faith. Even if one is the descendant of Abraham according to the flesh, one cannot be part of Abraham's house apart from faith. If one does not have faith, they are broken off from Abraham's house. However, should one have faith, then one is "grafted in" and is a a "partaker with" Israel (Romans 11:17).
One should keep in mind that it has never been God's desire for there to be an unbelieving child of Abraham. Take note of how the Old Covenant calls for the eradication of an unbelieving people. It spelled out life and the blessing for the faithful, death and the curse for those who were not.
So, where does this leave all of us in this discussion of the mystery that in past generations was not made known? Paul calls this mystery, "the mystery of Christ" (Eph 3:5). He sums up the mystery "to be specific" (Eph 3:6a) "that the Gentiles ARE fellow heirs AND fellow members of the body, AND fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel."
More to come in the next post I make... (have to go for dinner) :-)
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Jimmy H
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| | 2003/8/17 17:18 | Profile |
| | Re: | | One more thing I would like to add about the uniqueness of the Church the body of Christ. In Matthew 18:18 Christ says " I will build my Church". NOT I have built, NOT I am building, but I WILL build! In the original it is in the "future tense" just like it is translated in the English. He was not yet crucified and the Spirit had not yet formed the Church on the day of Pentecost. So if you believe that all who have ever been saved make up the Church you are mistaken. All those saints of old, like David, Samuel, Daniel, Isaiah etc, will indeed be saved but they are NOT of the Church which is His body. The Church did not exist until Pentecost.
Kevin |
| | 2003/8/17 17:53 | |
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