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HeartSong
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Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3172


 The Holocaust - Art Katz

"There's a process going on right now, and I say it again and again, there is a centrifugal thing taking place presently that is moving us toward one extreme or the other - apostolicity or apostasy. We are either going to be increasingly radical in our faith, or more and more compromised until we will find ourselves either among those who dwell in the earth, or those who dwell in heaven, and the one persecutes the other - in the earth." [i]- Art Katz[/i]


K-067A The Holocaust 1 of 4 by Art Katz
K-067B The Holocaust 2 of 4 by Art Katz
K-067C The Holocaust 3 of 4 by Art Katz
K-067D The Holocaust 4 of 4 by Art Katz

 2009/4/21 0:02Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3172


 Re: The Holocaust - Art Katz

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

- Matthew 23:29-38



"This is a remarkable statement about an identification of a people with sin that took place before their birth. 'Whom [u]you[/u] slew' - how could Jesus say that of murder that took place generations before the men were born whom he is addressing. He sees, and we need to see, an unbroken continuum of sin that we are not absolved from the responsibility of because we were born after the event. 'Because you [u]say[/u] that you would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets, therefore you be witnesses unto yourself that you [u]are[/u] the children of them who killed the prophets.' 'Because you say,' because you absolve yourself, because you see yourself as innocent, because you see yourself as un-implicated - having had the happy accident of being born after the event - that is your indictment."
[i]- Art Katz[/i]

 2009/4/22 1:47Profile









 Re: Original Sin

So does that mean the Art Katz believed in Original Sin? That all men are guilty in Adam; not just corrupt because of Adam's sin but guilty in Adam and born condemned before a Holy God.

 2009/4/22 9:02









 Re: The Holocaust - Art Katz

Thank you for posting these HeartSong.

Have a Blessed day with Him.

 2009/4/22 10:40
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

Mahoney wrote:
So does that mean the Art Katz believed in Original Sin? That all men are guilty in Adam; not just corrupt because of Adam's sin but guilty in Adam and born condemned before a Holy God.




we are not condemned because we inherited something from adam, God will not throw us in hell for something we did not do. If God condemns you for someone elses sin he would not be righteous. I dont think infants of one or two months go to hell because they where born with the sin nature. We go to hell because we sin. not because we where born with a nature who is "bent" towards sinning and loves it.

I do believe we have this nature, i also suspect we blame it to much, or some groups, just as adam blamed eve we blame our sin nature. We should confess what we did just as adam should have done.

Dont get me wrong, i do believe in the sin nature so to speak, I think Art did to, but as with everything its a wide subject and there are extreme sides, but i dont think that is what art is getting at here....

just a side note :-)


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2009/4/22 11:04Profile









 Re:

Quote:
If God condemns you for someone elses sin he would not be righteous.



Isn't that the point then? It seems to me Mr. Katz is saying that Israel, during the days of Christ,were guilty of the death of the former prophets, and evidence of that guilt is revealed in the fact that they denied and killed Him (Christ).

The time of one's birth seems not to be a factor in whether or not God considers one guilty.

This seems to be what he is saying.

 2009/4/22 13:58
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

I am not sure exactly what art is saying, but i think maybe he is saying that if we keep on to our fathers traditions and systems of religion we make our selves guilty of the same trespasses they committed.

but i am not sure, but by ignoring the errors they made and just keep clinging to the ways of the fathers we make ourselves guilty of their neglects, their trespasses and their sins also, maybe when we should have called the thing out in the open exposing it and maybe made it right....

but i am not sure .....

best is to listen through the sermon in its entirety, i have found that with some men of prophetic kind, we need hear EVERY word of what they speak, katz is like that, if he speaks for 90 minutes and you wonder off in your thoughts for 5 minutes you will miss the message, same thing i have found with T austin Sparks, these men require 100% attention to be able to grasp the message they try speak.

just my observation, so it is probably best to just listen to the sermon.


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2009/4/22 14:53Profile
broclint
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Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

HeartSong,

I made a trip yesterday that involved several hours traveling and had remembered this thread so I took along this series of messages by Art Katz and listened to all of them there and back. There is some discussion from time to time that I could not hear, but the message was loud and clear (spiritually) as so many of his were/are. Regarding the quote discussed above, the message that I believe that he was putting across that is so vitally true is that just because we were not physically there on any of those occassions in the past in which mankind was called to a point of decision regarding truth, that does not make us less responsible in the suceeding generations because each of us in each generation are faced with that same decision in kind. He used the example of choosing Barabbas versus Jesus Christ... how so many Jews, (and certainly not excluding Gentiles) from that time till now still have made/make that choice...even with all the religious trappings and surrounded by their semblance of "civil" society. I was stirred by the significance of how none of the judgments have been taken to heart... by dismissing any and all things that happen as the fault of this, that or the other, rather than acknowleging the fact that there is a soveriegn God who is not by any means absent during any and all of those things that come... a God of justice, a God of judgment. What a message that we need to hear. Things do not happen in a vacuum. God is not an abseentee landlord. Either he is in control or not, and if He is, then we need to rethink who this God is... and the reference to those closing chapters of Deuternomy in which judgments are so forcefully laid out and so long in advance regarding those who obey versus those who disobey... a challenge really about what we call faith... faith that does not obey God does not believe God.



I thought of the poem (made into song) by James R. Lowell:
Once to every man and nation, comes the moment to decide,
In the strife of truth with falsehood, for the good or evil side;
Some great cause, some great decision, offering each the bloom or blight,
And the choice goes by forever, ’twixt that darkness and that light.

Then to side with truth is noble, when we share her wretched crust,
Ere her cause bring fame and profit, and ’tis prosperous to be just;
Then it is the brave man chooses while the coward stands aside,
Till the multitude make virtue of the faith they had denied.

By the light of burning martyrs, Christ, Thy bleeding feet we track,
Toiling up new Calv’ries ever with the cross that turns not back;
New occasions teach new duties, time makes ancient good uncouth,
They must upward still and onward, who would keep abreast of truth.

Though the cause of evil prosper, yet the truth alone is strong;
Though her portion be the scaffold, and upon the throne be wrong;
Yet that scaffold sways the future, and behind the dim unknown,
Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above His own.

I could not help think as I listened to Art of just how timely, and yes prophetic, were his remarks regarding the innate and un-faced barbarism that seethes beneath the surface of so-called "civilization" that was exhibited in the uber-civilized Germany... and the displays that we have seen in this country in just the last couple of years... how quickly all the facade of religion and morality can be shed and the utter corruption of man without God can be revealed in all its ugliness (my state being one in which has been one of the worst displays, i.e. Katrina).

I was challenged by the reality that he referred to more than once, that we are always looking for some kind or religious, educational, societal solution (and reminded of recent threads in which I unfortunately displayed some not well thought out and prayed over responses) rather than facing the truth that God and God alone... repentance, confession of sin, and getting right with God, can solve the problems, whatever they are.

One remark that I cannot quote precisely but I believe to be quite relevant was how quickly Germany, in the vacuum of real revival, elevated (his words) the scum and dregs of society from the lowest (and he struggled with words) "strata" of society (speaking of specifically sinful lifestyles) to leadership, and thereby ushered in a most demonic and amoral society.

I believe this is a significant message for our times... long and intense and not easy to listen to,(several hours in fact) but full of challenges and warnings for a society that will no doubt, until it is upon us, refuse to believe that it could/will happen here.

If that kind of beastiality could happen in the land of the reformation, the land of Bach, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, the land of some of the greatest theologians, etc... what can restrain it from happening here... and then He speaks of the fact that if it is the judgment of God upon sin, then there will not be anything that restrains it, except repentance.

One thing that I noted that was not a part of the message because the issue had not been raised at the time of his message, but is now so very clearly a part of any mix of the reality of how quickly society can be radically transformed, is the Islamic barbarities that are happening world wide... and the current thread started a few years ago by Crsschk regarding the confused mix in Uganda... the Konies.

May God help us to have humble hearts to hear what God would speak to us from those who have suffered persecution and rejection to bring us messages from the Holy God of Truth.

Thank you for starting this thread. I am glad God provided the time for me to hear these messages, and still so thankful to God for SI.

Clint


_________________
Clint Thornton

 2009/5/1 10:31Profile









 Re:

broclint wrote:

[i]"If that kind of beastiality could happen in the land of the reformation, the land of Bach, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, the land of some of the greatest theologians, etc... what can restrain it from happening here... and then He speaks of the fact that if it is the judgment of God upon sin, then there will not be anything that restrains it, except repentance.


May God help us to have humble hearts to hear what God would speak to us from those who have suffered persecution and rejection to bring us messages from the Holy God of Truth."[/i]

 2009/5/1 12:07





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