[url=http://nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/1-in-8-million/index.html?hp&hp#/elizabeth_cousins]Elisabeth Cousins and her baby [/url]

Greetings brother Neil

I want you to know that my previous post was not meant in any way to challenge you or cause you to stumble in coming back and posting further against your word. At this time I do humbly ask you though please do not put words into my mouth, I did not say or imply that God dismisses these women in the article that Greg posted. (and I was commenting only on the article that Greg posted) Of course His love and mercy covers a multitude of sins, including fornication. Amen with out that love and mercy I would still be lost. I was once in the same position as many of these women are today, I was guilty of the sin of fornication and living in rebellion to Him. I know what it means to be forgiven as I know you do. But honestly I don't understand what your trying to say, simple question... isn't having relations outside of marriage fornication? Is that not called sin in the Word of God. If we do not share with the lost that they are indeed sinners how will they ever feel or see their need for a Savior? All I can say to you brother is from my heart, I am so thankful for the few people that Father put in my life that spoke to me honestly about the sin I was living in. I am thankful that they were willing to risk all in order to share with me so that I too might know His truth and repent.

As for Sunday morning being a time of segregation I will have to take your word on that I do not attend the structure services and have not for the past 10 years. I also do not know how each of the old path preacher on the forum looked upon slavery since I have not read each one of the articles nor did I live when they did to know them personally or their hearts on the subject. I do however seek to live my life daily in Him and to walk in submission to His will as I know many others do to. I do my best to look at people as people... those who wear the name of Jesus and walk in His way(according to scripture) I gladly call brother and sisters and those that do not I pray one day will be brother and sister. I want to be careful of my words I choose here and not get caught up in debating with you, that was not the intent of my original post to you. I will be praying and seeking Father if there is anything in my heart that is not of Him then I know He is faithful and will show me. In all things I only wish to see Him glorified and His name lifted up.

I pray you have a blessed day in Him Neil, if I do not hear from you further I understand you are seeking to follow what Father is showing you in all of this as well.

God Bless you brother
MJ

With all due compassion... I think that you have missed the point of our host. The issues of out-of-wedlock births and the horror of abortion are not, in this case, tied together. Greg has put before us the singular issue of child birth outside of God's perfiect plan. This in and of its self is the focus of our moderator. I am sure that he understands the hurt, the pain and the struggles, that every person involved in abortion deals with.

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David Hasty

Neil,

I would like to respond to your 'concern', if I may call it that. What I have to say may have been said by others - I do not at the moment have time to read all the responses.

As the father of several aborted children, you are experiencing intense grief for past sins - sins confessed and repented of, I am sure. To be reminded again of it angers you...you are having a hard time forgiving yourself. And that is one of the reasons why abortion is a tragedy to both parents: not only is a life taken but there is the aftermath of grief that 'kills' the parents. This is called the Post-Abortion-Syndrome.

Neil, the reason the rate of illegitimacy is so startling is because Scripture teaches us that immorality - "Let it not be named once among you", Ephesians 5:3 - is sin. And unfortunately, this trend is common in popular churches. When this is the case it is quite revealing that these churches are not peopled with saints but unrepentant sinners. I have talked with hundreds of females who profess to be Christians who experience little guilt for fornication/adultery. That is why this rate gives saints a reason for concern. The ironical thing is that while the rate for blacks is so high, they are also the most religious in our part of the country. (There is an African-American lady who comes to our store and we talk seriously about Scripture. Yesterday she was lamenting the ignorance of Scripture among her own people, and the I-do-not-care-mentality...)

I hope you will rethink the concern people express about the illegitimacy rate. May I suggest you get involved in abortion recovery group for fathers? Some have gone on to fight this evil...

Neil, a mark of repentance/forgiveness is the ability to speak out against sins you have committed. So, I have sinned, too. Should I now be silent about identifying these sins because I have been guilty of them? If anything, it should make one be more aggressive about warning others about the deceitfulness of sin. What do you think?

God bless you, Neil. I believe you when you inform us of the pain you feel when you recall...But God, through the work of the Holy Spirit can heal your soul of that pain. Go for it!

Blessings,
ginnyrose

EDIT: May I suggest you read the book "The Hand of God" by Bernard Nathanson. Dr. Nathanson was in the forefront of the move to legalize abortion in the USA and personally aborted his own...If I recall, he was responsible for aborting 55,000. Imagine the agony of this man's soul...

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Sandra Miller

Sister, may God bless you too, you cant hear my voice, but it is gentle. I want to give your post its due in response, but I have such housework right now, that if I respond, I will not attend to my responsibilities, and I didnt want you to think for a second that I was ignoring you, or God forbid, stewing. Allow me, a day or two to address, every issue you brought up.

Gracefully, neil

Neil,

I rereading my post I think I came across as being quite blunt. I hope you do not take it to mean I am hard? My heart goes out to people who suffer from PAS. I have heard these ladies share their pain (the ones who have aborted their children) and it is so deep it will even cause others to tear up. But these ladies are so aggressive in fighting abortion they get very impatient when they find someone who is contemplating the procedure and they grieve deeply, more so then I ever could.

You may also be interested to know that Dr. Nathanson was by birth and heritage a Jew. He has repented of his contribution to the abortion industry but had a problem of forgiving himself. He ended up joining the Catholic church because there was a priest who reached out to him. In any case, his story is well worth reading. The book can be purchased from Amazon.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

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Sandra Miller

Hi Neil...

It is possible to realize that premarital sex AND abortion are wrong.

We should definitely reach out with the love of God to those who commit such sins, but we cannot candy coat the sin for the sake of the sinner's desire to not feel "judged." The "Good News" can only be fully understood and accepted when people realize the "bad news" -- that sin seperates people from God. Yet the love that we express to "sinners" has to be real -- and it has to be mingled with the message that we are all guilty of sin. The good news is that we won't stand with the accused if we come to Christ and forsake those things out of love for Him.

Anyway, I don't mean to "jump in" to this conversation uninvited, but I just wanted to interject that we can preach that BOTH things are sinful in a manner that is not self-righteous. Premarital sex is a sin at the same time that abortion is the purposeful murder of an unborn baby. Yet the Blood of Christ Jesus is powerful enough to reach both.

BTW, I don't think that Greg meant anything by this article other than a presentation of just what the times we live in look like. Forty years ago, unwed mothers constituted a small proportion of the population. Today, it is almost "normal" -- and even homosexuals want to indulge in their sin and still raise children as "their own."

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Christopher

Greetings Ginnyrose

I just wanted to say thank you.You shared: I have heard these ladies share their pain (the ones who have aborted their children) and it is so deep it will even cause others to tear up. But these ladies are so aggressive in fighting abortion they get very impatient when they find someone who is contemplating the procedure and they grieve deeply, more so then I ever could

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I just wanted to say that it was a young nurse who had gone through her own abortion years before that had openly and honestly shared with me. I will never forget the pain in her voice or the sadness in her eyes when she talked about the baby that she aborted. To this day I am so thankful that this lady had the courage to share truth with me, she could have lost her job for doing what she did. Reading over what you shared just really gave me pause, how close I came to walking that path that day and aborting my daughter. I am so thankful to the Lord for sending faithful servants into my life to share His truth with me so that I might repent and be saved.

Neil: I just wanted to say dear brother that you have been much on my heart and I am praying for you.


God Bless
Maryjane

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Sandra Miller

If two persons are living together and they are not married according the rituals of marriage and/or justice of the peace, and they have children, raise them, are you telling me that these kids are born out of wedlock?

Depends on how you view marriage. If a man and a woman (got to be specific these days) are married under the contract of common law, and they have babies and raise them, that is not out of wedlock. They are married, just not according to the standards of the world and the Church. But according to God they are. God honours that union as long as they stay together, just like those that have gone through the ceremony of vows of weights that no man keep anyway.

The Church errs greatly concerning this and has put millions under condemnation. Paul was very clear when he said that if you have sex with a harlot, you've become one flesh with her. One flesh is marriage. Because he went on in the next verse giving the same idea when we come in union with Jesus we are one spirit. 1 Corinthians 6:15 16 17

I can see all you legalist digging out your Greek lexicons and Matthew Henry's.