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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : God Doesn't Want Your Money! by brother Greg

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I think that I gave you a good example of a church that did not beg for money every week. It is not Biblical to ask for money every week.



Certainly I like the whole idea of a box, I did not know Full Faith Church of Love did that? Great to hear.

I agree that there is excesses in receiving offerings and the use of the tithe concept, etc. However, we have to be consistent in our treatment of the local church that we would be with the local car wash or grocery store. If they need funds to operate- so does the local church. I don't think it is just to expect [i]consistent[/i] services without a [i]consistent[/i] contribution.

We should not hold the local church that has many expenses to a different standard than any other establishment profit or non-profit. If we want to meet in a 'building' other than someone's home then we have to be prepared to share the cost of that. Few things are free. So as we balance our conversation let us be mindful of whether or not we are holding the local church to an unrealistic standard. Not every church has bottomless pockets and not every preacher drives a Lexus. Some are working all week spending their own money to pay the light bill and are not taking a salary. If preaching was such a lucrative profession we wouldn't be closing churches by the hundreds each year because we have an aging pastorate.

Just some more things to consider...


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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/4/14 9:52Profile
Lordoitagain
Member



Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 611
Monroe, LA - USA

 Re: Is Paul saying that preachers are to work with their own hands to meet their needs?

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

WHAT TRADITION WAS THAT?

7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

WHAT WAS PAUL’S EXAMPLE?


Acts 20:33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.


2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.


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Michael Strickland

 2009/4/14 14:37Profile









 Re:

Quote

"Not every church has bottomless pockets and not every preacher drives a Lexus. Some are working all week spending their own money to pay the light bill and are not taking a salary. If preaching was such a lucrative profession we wouldn't be closing churches by the hundreds each year because we have an aging pastorate."

Hi Robert...No one said that brother. There are some people that are called or are made by God to see the bigger picture. Paul was mindful of what the population was thinking when it came to the notion of money. While there are many church's that do not have excess, there are many more that do. Nationally, 92% of all money collected in the States stays in the States. Typically this money pays for staff, and buidings and programs.


Quote


"However, we have to be consistent in our treatment of the local church that we would be with the local car wash or grocery store."

Sorry brother, I have to disagree with that premise. Part of the modern church's problem is that they have considered themselves as business's and employed business methods to grow themselves and so on. It is simply not God's way, nor is it Biblical. Now, it may seem irresposible, but that would only be the case if we use common sense and the wisdom of man. Many pastors critizised Full-Faith for not preaching and collecting the tithe. I think the main point is that if we have genuine Christians , led by the Spirit, in our congregations then the bills will always be paid. If God has a work to do, He will supply the need, and not through a legalistic approach to money......God bless you Robert............Frank

 2009/4/14 14:42
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
If preaching was such a lucrative profession we wouldn't be closing churches by the hundreds each year because we have an aging pastorate.



Hi all...

I wonder, Robert, if it isn't God Himself who is responsible for this closing of churches you mention, because He is weary of a system (the pastor-led church system) that He never originated in the first place, and which is failing badly our day. Yes, I know, He is patient beyond words, and has used this man-invented order, and blessed it in days past. But I believe He deeply desires now to bring forth the desire of His own heart.

It seems it's very deeply ingrained in our thinking that "church" is an institution that has a professional clergy, generally one man who is salaried by the people, the rest being "volunteers," even though God's hope is to have a kingdom of priests in which each and every one is a vital expression of Himself.

I realize that in a local church there may be those who should receive remuneration for a time (as was touched on in the Who Is Responsible thread). But I don't think it is to be the rule that it's the pastor who is paid.

I agree with what Frank said, that church is pretty much set up after the business model. This is a lamentation, and shall be for a lamentation.

...Then there are those who say they feel "led" to "live by faith." How did that ever come to mean living without having a job? In other words, to live "by faith" means living off of those who have to get out there and work for a living?

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/4/14 16:39Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I wonder, Robert, if it isn't God Himself who is responsible for this closing of churches you mention, because He is weary of a system (the pastor-led church system) that He never originated in the first place, and which is failing badly our day. Yes, I know, He is patient beyond words, and has used this man-invented order, and blessed it in days past. But I believe He deeply desires now to bring forth the desire of His own heart.



Could be. I don't know for sure and I don't think anyone else does either unless God has somehow specifically revealed it. But my point is that it is not a fair statement to assume that all pastors are wealthy or that somehow pastorates are on a waiting list because they are such high paying jobs. That is simply a false notion whether stated or implied. But why we are losing pastors? I have some theories, but that is all they are.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2009/4/14 16:48Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Frank,

Quote:
I think the main point is that if we have genuine Christians , led by the Spirit, in our congregations then the bills will always be paid. If God has a work to do, He will supply the need, and not through a legalistic approach to money



I think we are pretty much in agreement. I'm really just saying that we have to expect to pay of we expect to play (as it were). ;-)


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2009/4/14 16:50Profile









 Re:

Quote

"It seems it's very deeply ingrained in our thinking that "church" is an institution that has a professional clergy, generally one man who is salaried by the people, the rest being "volunteers," even though God's hope is to have a kingdom of priests in which each and every one is a vital expression of Himself."

Amen brother. There are so many topics that you rarely hear preached from the pulpit because the "Pastor," is beholden to the hearers because they control the purse strings. It a system that I do believe that God is getting ready to sweep away and the people who will fight it most, I believe, will be the "professional clergy." They have a vested interest in the status quo. That is not to say that they are bad people, its just a rotton old system is about to have the axe taken to it and the Lord will pluck a tender shoot from the highest branch and plant it in good soil for His own purposes............Frank

 2009/4/14 17:31
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
[But why we are losing pastors? I have some theories, but that is all they are.



I'm interested to hear what your theories are.

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/4/14 17:40Profile





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