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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is this song doctrinally sound?

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 Re:

Why are we spending so much time discussing a silly little song? C'mon people...

Krispy

 2009/3/26 13:04









 Re: Doctrine & Focus

We're discussing "music" and I believe that Lordoitagain has hit on a vital issue in The Church.


Lucifer was in charge of "music", so to speak, before his fall - in his fallen state, he Knows the Power of melody, rythem and lyrics - for sure.


Music "sticks" in the head, even the words, though we may be unconscious of them.



IF a song is Not "Scirptually sound" - then we are exposing our spirits to "false doctrine."


If anyone wants to live on a steady diet of unsound doctrine, that is there perogative - but I know from the testimonies of those being Persecuted, Tortured or having any form of brain damage - that "music" from GOD's Word [such as good hymns] has gotten them through - very much so.


Yes, the "words" are very very important.

And as Lordoitagain posted elsewhere - it 'is' true that most of today's music centers on Self.

I think Lordoitagain has done us a great service.


It's not just "this one song" that's the topic and I Thank Lordoitagain for bringing this issue forward for our minds/spirits.

 2009/3/26 16:09
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

Quote:
IF a song is Not "Scirptually sound" - then we are exposing our spirits to "false doctrine."



[b][size=medium]AMEN![/size][/b]


_________________
Janice

 2009/3/26 17:40Profile
Lordoitagain
Member



Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 611
Monroe, LA - USA

 Re: Doctrine & Focus

Jesus-is-God,

Although I don't know my heart, as stated in Jer. 17:9-10, I hope that your description of my motive for this post is what God sees. It grieves me when I read reports from the mission field http://www.joshuaproject.net/ that nearly 2 billion people have still not heard the message of God's salvation. I remember reading from Hudson Taylor's works about a Chinese man who asked him: "and how long has your people known about Jesus?" When he told him "for several hundred years", he said "my dad died after spending his whole life searching in several religions for what you have now given to me . . . and you are just now bringing it to us?"

Subtle "me centered" theology that is woven into our songs takes our focus off of declaring His glory among the heathen Psalms 96:3 and keeps us worried about our personal feelings.

With the dosage of the gospel that America alone has been exposed to, and with the resources that we have available, we should have already declared His glory to ALL the heathen! Instead of praying for laborers to be sent into the harvest . . . we are busy praying for God to keep our moods in an up-swing, HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY because otherwise, we feel defeated in this "all about me" gospel that Brother Reidhead describes in "10 shekels and a shirt".


_________________
Michael Strickland

 2009/3/26 18:54Profile
Lordoitagain
Member



Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 611
Monroe, LA - USA

 Re:

Neil,

I will try to answer some of your questions to me if I can. I realize that not all of your frustration was for me, but for some who replied to this post. I cannot answer for them, but as I stated to Jesus-is-God, I hope that my motives are as he described them, although God is the only One who knows motives Jer. 17:9-10.

Quote:
"Lorddoitagain", why would you even deign to make such a post? You had your answer, you knew your answer, so why ask the question? To recieve a chorus of "yes" and "amens" from fellow saints as they heap scorn on an artist expressing his love for God as he is led to?



I am accustomed to reading discussions on SI that are FILLED with Bible references. I hoped to get more Bible feedback than opinion. One brother brought up:
Quote:
"Bring My sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth, everyone who is called by My name, and whom I have created for My glory." Isa. 43:7



which supports the concepts that Paris Reidhead outlined in "10 Shekels and a Shirt" regarding humanism and its leavening of our Christian concepts in this modern world.

Have you ever heard Brother Reidhead's message? If so, you might more fully understand my concern about "me centered" theology in our music.



Quote:
That's the problem plaguing many Christians? The "music" they listen to?




I feel that many of the problems have to do with the music . . . but that is not the only one. Any form of communication (singing, preaching, drama, writing, etc.) that communicates the leaven that Jesus told us to beware of Matthew 16:11 should be avoided. Notice: he said the leaven of the Pharisees and Saducees. They represented two extremes of theology: "legalism", and "live as you please for tomorrow we die". You may think that this forum leans toward Phariseeism because we "prove all things", but if you notice on the discussions, both types of error are questioned on this forum.

I'm on my way to a church service in Spanish . . . but I have more to share. Brother I LOVE God's people the Jews. As I child someone gifted me a cassette of songs form "Jews for Jesus", and it was almost the only music that I listened to for many years.

I am so sorry for what others have done under the banner "Christian" agianst God's chosen people Israel, but I can't change that. I hope that you can find it in your heart to forgive. I have had to forgive terrible things against myself . . . but I've never known such slaughter against my own kinsmen as you have. I will be praying for your heart to heal in regards to those terrible atrocities.

Sincerely,

Michael Strickland


_________________
Michael Strickland

 2009/3/26 19:23Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone,




Some things in the words of the song reminded me of Deuteronomy 32:10, Ps 17:8, and Zechariah 2:8.



It seems to me that there is at least a twofold sense of the word truth as it may apply here: one, in the sense of the soundness of the words that are sung and two in the sense of the honesty of the one singing.


I was reminded of a story that Pastor Wurmbrand tells in one of the messages available here. I might get some of these details wrong so please keep that in mind, but as I remember it, he was sharing about visiting in a home with someone from a congregation that he either spoke at or attended for some reason, and at some point he asks them for their hymnbook so that they could sing. When the man replied that they did not have one he asked him 'then why did you lie?'.

The man asked him what he was talking about, and he recalled how in the worship they had sung 'O for a thousand tongues to sing' and he said to him, 'why did you lie; if you only sing praises to God once a week then one tongue is more than enough'.




It seems to me that God could be offended as much with truthful words sung dishonestly as anything else.


Or that He even could be more pleased with simple, but less doctrinally full words, that are sung with a heart full of faith and love towards Him.


It seems to me also that words rich in doctrine [b]can[/b] have a hardnening effect on the heart if they are sung out of obligation, repetition, ritual form and tradition.

I suppose too that among the many resources that we have in America are millions and millions of Hymnbooks.




Some of you may know that I began as a Christian at an Apostolic Pentecostal Church. We didn't have any hymnbooks and most of the songs that were sung were sung from memory. They were usually very simple and easy to remember. But they were also very easy to sing with all the heart.


One of my favorites was like this:


Order my steps in Your Word dear Lord

Lead me

Guide me

Every Day


Send Your anointing Father I pray


Order my steps in Your Word.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/3/26 19:51Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
how do you think I feel when I read that rhetoric?


Rhetoric? In a Watts hymn? I hardly think so.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2009/3/26 22:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Lordoitagain wrote:
Jesus-is-God,

[b]Although I don't know my heart, as stated in Jer. 17:9-10, I hope that your description of my motive for this post is what God sees. It grieves me when I read reports from the mission field http://www.joshuaproject.net/ that nearly 2 billion people have still not heard the message of God's salvation. I remember reading from Hudson Taylor's works about a Chinese man who asked him: "and how long has your people known about Jesus?" When he told him "for several hundred years", he said "my dad died after spending his whole life searching in several religions for what you have now given to me . . . and you are just now bringing it to us?"

Subtle "me centered" theology that is woven into our songs takes our focus off of declaring His glory among the heathen Psalms 96:3 and keeps us worried about our personal feelings.

With the dosage of the gospel that America alone has been exposed to, and with the resources that we have available, we should have already declared His glory to ALL the heathen! Instead of praying for laborers to be sent into the harvest . . . we are busy praying for God to keep our moods in an up-swing, HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY because otherwise, we feel defeated in this "all about me" gospel that Brother Reidhead describes in "10 shekels and a shirt".[/b]




Amen! GOD Bless you.

 2009/3/27 10:11
run2win
Member



Joined: 2009/2/1
Posts: 164
USA

 Re:

Amen to Compton's post. Well put, brother.

Watts's hymn is lovely, indeed. It exalts Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.

I was once invited to partake of a Passover seder with a messianic Jewish family, and that was a great example of the use of "types" or "shadows" of the substance of Christ; the shadows or types of Christ are everywhere found in the Old Testament.

The gospel was given to the Jew first. I thank God that He made room for me among the children of Abraham through the blood of Christ.

In addition to what Compton shared from Hebrews, Rom 5:14 and Heb 11:19 and Col2:17 contain the use of the word "figure" or "type" or "shadow" (depending upon your translation) in the sense of what Watts was conveying in his hymn.

May we sharpen one another as iron sharpens iron. This was altogether a good thread in that sense.

Grace and peace.

 2009/3/27 16:33Profile
Lordoitagain
Member



Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 611
Monroe, LA - USA

 Re: Music in the mind

Jesus-is-God wrote:

Quote:
If anyone wants to live on a steady diet of unsound doctrine, that is there perogative - but I know from the testimonies of those being Persecuted, Tortured or having any form of brain damage - that "music" from GOD's Word [such as good hymns] has gotten them through - very much so.



Brother, my mom worked and ministered in a nursing home for many years. Often, they had patients whose minds were so "far gone" with dimentia that they couldn't even talk. Those same patients would attend a church service in the activity room, and when old familiar songs were being sung, they would join in and sing with the rest of them.

We will not understand all about it until we get on the other side, but somehow music is a very important thing for us while on this journey home. As stated in Col 3:16, it is a method that God commands us to use to teach and admonish. The ministry of teaching is one of the 5 gifts to the church in Eph 4:11.

One of the reasons for the great success of the Methodist movement is that while John Wesley was preaching the message, Charles Wesley was busy teaching the message (our 2-fold Great commission Matt 28:19 & Mark 16:15) in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.

To me, the command in Col 3:16 mirrors the Old Testament command in Deut. 6:6-7. With the event of modern technology, many people are constantly hearing music [in the house, sitting, lying down, rising up, walking - or riding in a car]. With that constant teaching, what are we engraving on our hearts? "Me-centered" theology? I hope not!!!

I agree whole-heartedly with the comments on the hymn "Lord, I Am Vile, Conceived In Sin". Does anyone know of a link to a recording of it? I didn't find the music played on cyber-hymnal.

I believe that I "understand where you're coming from, ChrisJD:
Quote:
It seems to me that God could be offended as much with truthful words sung dishonestly as anything else. Or that He even could be more pleased with simple, but less doctrinally full words, that are sung with a heart full of faith and love towards Him.



I believe that there is a need for all kinds of songs . . . the deep, doctrinally packed ones, and the more simple ones [perhaps the difference in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs]. . . as long as there is not leaven in the message. Some have need of milk while others are eating solid meat.

I agree, wayneman:

Quote:
They don't write 'em like that anymore.



It is a sad truth, but if you think about the generation that we live in now . . . most modern people don't have the attention span nor the intellect to digest such songs. A "TV raised" generation is accustomed to fast action . . . jumping from one thing to another . . . never "slowing down" enough to digest a deep subject. We who were taught in public schools in America were subjected to a system which some believe has purposefully "dumbed down" this generation. In order to fully grasp such songs, we'd have to get a dictionary out.


Yet, while many in our generation don't even "have a clue" of the depths of treasures that the older generation enjoyed . . . billions on our planet have never heard the simple gospel message that Jesus the Son of God died to take away our sins.

We have a lot to pray about!


_________________
Michael Strickland

 2009/3/27 20:10Profile





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