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hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:

i think an interesting observation is that that only in those parts of the world where there is no persecution or very little do they belive in pre rapture, i suspect our flesh comforts itself with such doctrines, the more then 50 millions of martys where not raptured. why would we be? we all ready many of us live the most comfortable lifes of all christians throughout all history.

its a matter of getting ready now,the way of the cross is foolishness... the way of death, filling up the sufferings that remain. not that we are worthy, to suffer for him, but is it his will for me i want to embrace it with heavenly joy.

god give us light and grace.


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/3/21 15:32Profile
Earendel
Member



Joined: 2009/3/17
Posts: 308
Central Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Here's an interesting video about the Tribulation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjbh_e-hArY&feature=related


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David

 2009/3/21 15:39Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re:

Quote:
hmmhmm wrote:
i think an interesting observation is that that only in those parts of the world where there is no persecution or very little do they belive in pre rapture,


I went to Russia about 10 years ago on a mission trip and one quiet evening I decided to ask them what they thought of the pre-trib rapture of the church. They chuckled politely and I told the interpreter, "I don't believe it either; I just wanted to know what people outside of America thought because probably 3/4 of America does." There was more conversation but that is the jest of it, they chuckled and shook their heads.

In the [b]4 world leaders call for single currency[/b] thread someone wrote: [i]This is something that does not surprise me. But it does surprise me that is appears to be happening so soon.[/i]

I think we are going to be seeing a lot of things that happens a lot sooner than anyone thought it should.

That old hymn, "Oh I want to see Him"... "As I journey through the land singing as I go, pointing souls to Calvary through the crimson flow, many arrows pierce my soul from without within, but my Lord pulls ahead, through Him I will win!"

Amen!!


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Lisa

 2009/3/21 17:41Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re: The Great Tribulation

[i]Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:
c“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
37 dYet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor eprincipalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Rom 8:35-39). [/i]


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/3/21 18:01Profile









 Re:

Tribulation will come, but this event that is called "The Great Tribulation" of seven years is not found in the bible. I think it's a lot of hype and misrepresented scriptures being used. But to say that it's not there doesn't take away the fact that all us who live Godly in this world will suffer persecution and hardship, it's a given. But to use scriptures that don't fit is not wise.

 2009/3/21 20:37









 Re: The Great Tribulation

My dear dear brother. These things that you are speaking of have already occurred. What you are seeing in visions and dreams is certainly for our future, but not in any way shape or form is a direct fulfillment of what is already fulfilled. Yes indeed, we can draw from them and they are indeed spiritual truths to us and to take out of it the deepness of the message embedded in it. But everything that the Prophet Daniel spoke of is long past. There is no signing of any peace agreement with an Anti Christ that is not even in the bible. It doesn't say "and he shall make a peace treaty with many for one week". It says, "and he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week". That week is in reference to the last week of Daniels 70 weeks in which Christ would come and to confirm the covenant that was made to Abraham and in the middle of that week, Christ was cut off but not for Himself but for the sins of the people. And for the overspreading of abominations God would make Jerusalem desolate, because after Christ atonement there was to be no more. But the Jews continued on offering up bulls and cows, which in the eyes of God were an abomination as it was foretold by Isaiah. It's in this mistranslated verse of Daniel 9:27 that you get Scofields corrupted notes that sold the church a lie by inserting the words "peace treaty" and by teaching that there was to be an uncertain amount of years between the 69th week and the 70th week, there is absolutely no support for that lie, and how I used to believe that is beyond me.

 2009/3/21 20:56
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re: The Great Tribulation

Quote:
Earendel wrote:
The book of Revelation does not give us what day to day life will be like for the Christian during the time known as the Great Tribulation, only that is will be a slaughter of humanity.


Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
Psalm 116:15

Quote:
Many homeless Christians roam around in the wilderness, with nothing on them, no food and no water to drink; they have nowhere to go. They are starved, thirsty and cold, and many just cannot cope anymore with the trauma, and just give themselves up. The weather does not help their condition either; the winters gets colder and colder as time progresses.


I'm not so sure (now mind you, I don't know!! lol) but notice these verses...

Revelation 11.9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Revelation 11.10 Those who dwell on the earth rejoice over them, and they will be glad. They will give gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

I think this leans toward proving that people may not be roaming with no food or no water but will still be buying and selling and watching cable or satelite tv in the comfort of their nice warm houses! I realize this may not be the Christians, 1/2 of the true believers could be dead.

I don't know it seems that life as we know could be going on as usual. Because the Word does say that, "Those who dwell on the earth rejoice over" the two dead witnesses. The world can't rejoice if they don't have their tv's and cable hooked up so they can watch them for three days. It's just something to think about.

I have listened recently (within the last three years) to David Pawson and Zac Poonen, they both have Revelation series that are excellent and long, 10 sessions or more. Now, I don't agree 100% with everything they say but I like their perspective, they think out-of-the-box, that's right up my alley!

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=528]David Pawson[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=157&min=280&orderby=titleA&show=20]Zac Poonen[/url]

I think your scenario is off just a tad but I also realize mine is no better!! *grin* I think where I really differ from most is that I believe that Christians are going in both of the resurrections. How so? Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first! That statement alone makes me there's another part that didn't make the muster; because He doesn't say if you don't go in this one, you're not going. They could be going... just not in this one!

And the books are pulled out for the second resurrection, if we automatically get a get-out-of-hell-free card then we should by have gone with the ones who went in the first. And if the unbelievers get a go-straight-to-hell card, why the judgment if they are going to hell anyway? To me that doesn't make sense but I know my beliefs on the subject are not written in stone and are subject to be changed!

Well, let me tell you how I got to this belief, I was heavily into the post trib thing and surviving this world, never mind what the Bible said!! And the Lord showed me that when He was coming - it was of no consequence but what WAS of consequence was my condition, was I blessed and holy to take part in the first resurrection?

[i]Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.[/i]
Revelation 20:6

I believe at the time He was preparing me to (hopefully) get into spiritual shape that I might attain to the first resurrection. That's what I'm shooting for anyway, only the Lord knows if I'll get there but I do know that He gave me warning and if I don't make it, it will be my own fault because I didn't rule and reign over my flesh on this earth. If I can't rule and reign over this flesh now before I die? How in the world can I be found able to rule and reign as a priest of God and of Christ during the 1,000 year reign? Like I said, that's just how He showed me.

One more thing that goes with your scenario I think is they say that history repeats itself... we need to remember that when Nero wanted to rebuild Rome he burned it down and blamed the Christians solidifying their persecution. I'd say we could be blamed for something as well, it's going to have to be pretty big, but they'll do their best to pin it on us.

Most importantly, Earendel, even if it does get as bad as your scenario says or even worse; the Word was written for us today as our example; to remind us of what the Lord has done for His people, how He is still doing it and how He will continue to do it tomorrrow because He is the SAME yesterday, today and forever! Amen! Hallelujah!!


_________________
Lisa

 2009/3/22 1:03Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re: The Great Tribulation

PS:
I didn't want anyone to think I disliked their statements (if they made any) but I won't be writing for awhile, it's a God thing. He's really showing me I'm wasting His time and mine sitting in front of this screen. He's been showing me for awhile but I've ignored Him and now I have to repent and spend time with my first love!!

God bless you all!!


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Lisa

 2009/3/22 1:06Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

quote;
"i think an interesting observation is that that only in those parts of the world where there is no persecution or very little do they believe in pre rapture, i suspect our flesh comforts itself with such doctrines,....."

I would also think it interesting that those that seek approval for their erroneous doctrine that is unscriptural would turn to the consensus of the world to establish their desire for persecution.

I wonder if those that take a position erroneously,that the rapture ,(catching away) takes place at the end of the tribulation period,ever even bother to examine their own bibles.

It would appear to me that the post trib doctrine originated from the need to appease any brother that has suffered from tribulation,as if appeasement is the highest ground.

To just assume some doctrine is worthy of belief because someone died or suffered is great,great error.
No sir,i will not surrender sound doctrine to appease any teacher or group.

Experiences that Christians have, have been pigeon holed incorrectly to form doctrine.

It is so good to be able to pray this prayer with Jesus;
Luke 21; 36
"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. "

It is a sad day when the consensus of the brethren prevent the church from agreeing with the king.

rev 22;12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.


This prayer came from the throne room of God and it is interesting it is the final prayer of the bible.
Jesus is leaving his church with a prayer that teachers and promoters of error have erased from the heart of the church

 2009/3/22 11:29Profile









 Re: The Great Tribulation..He Provides.

I am responding to the original post here, as opinions and reactions are so diversified, as they must be. It is pure speculation, as to the outcome of the End-times, except that general guiding we have by the Word of God.


Overall, Earendel, I see some of the very things you do, and I heartily agree with you, that the Church shall go THROUGH the great Tribulation. Zac Poonen, in his Revelation series, brings out some good points. "Who are these?"....[a great multitude no man can number..]..."These are those who CAME OUT of great tribulation..", and pointing out that they went in, and then came out.


Aside from the multitude of possibilities, [..and I see it as a good thing to discuss these according to the Word..], another thing that Poonen brings to light is the fact that Revelation is to be OBEYED..and not necessarily to speculate upon.



Here are a couple of issues that I would expound on, that I feel necessary though, that you lightly address.


1. God has not appointed His bride to wrath. "I have never seen the righteous forsaken, or his seed begging bread." The world may fall, but the Lord will not, nor cannot forsake his beloved. Yes, there may be martyrs, there may be deprivation and hardship...but He will provide. Miraculous Provision...and the 40 years under Moses was but a type of what may come upon true believers in this time.


2. The glory of God will fill the true church, and the time of "GREATER WORKS" has not yet occurred. the church, at some point, will enter into ever increasing glory, where Jesus Himself shall abide in Her, Live in Her, and emanate from her unto absolute victory over all of her enemies."The Bride has made Herself ready."...and "The plowman shall overcome the treader of grapes", which means instant maturity, instant fruit...given to the Bride. The glory of the Lord, shall be risen upon us...[ ISAIAH 61 ].


We will not be victims, in this great persecution and pressure, but Overcomers, and Victors....and will be Willing in the DAY of his power...willing, as Paul, the apostles, and the early church to say YES!...no matter the cost...to bring and display the Love of God to those destined for Hell. We will come through...come out...with white unstained garments.


Jesus himself will be in us witnessing of His great sacrifice, and we will display Him as Lord and Savior, with power, miracles, domination over the Devil and his armies, and His limitless Love for the Lost.


In the end, or testimony , as Abraham's, will be that Jahweh Provides.....everything. The sacrifice, and every thing we will need, including natural provision, and all graces...to overcome and prosper in the Kingdom, and our battle cry will be as the great Job, "Even though He slay me, YET will I trust in Him!"


















































 2009/3/22 11:56





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