Brother Neil, maybe you are known to be a "peacemaker" and blessed are they who are.

I do not believe in arguing with Members of Forums, but when I see Leadership acting out of Biblical character, then YES, we are to speak up and expose.

Forum members can post their views until the LORD comes back in my view but leadership should be "tested" - handled with all the Biblical Mandates written out by Jesus, Paul, John, Jude, because to whom much has been given much is required.
Because they are either "lording over the sheep" or "shepherding" the sheep.
Because members do not "lead" but leaders do.

If you don't feel called to keep leadership in check for our sakes - the Sheep world-wide - then bow out of the conversation I'd say. Go in Shalom and stay under HIS Trustworthy Wing - but there are many who are sick and tired of being bamboozled and hurt by so called "shepherds" who lift 'themselves' up by slamming other loving-laboring shepherds.

Brother, that brings nothing but strife and a lack of love for the Body of Christ. THEY do NOT see the NEED to see the ramifications of their words to The Body As A Whole ... they only see a chance for SELF-PROMOTION [not yelling neil, just emphasis].

The Church has become an entity that is run more like a Big Corporate.
"Strive for promotion by stepping on the other guy."

"Get your raise by defaming another"

Isn't that what they used to call "Dog eat dog" in corporate talk?


No, the door has been opened and it will not shut. Too much has been said from too many sides. Not meaning forum members here - but these who are "Teachers of the flock".

We're told to Test them!

To check "their FRUIT" - amen! Jesus commanded us to.

Blessed are the peacemakers among THEM as well.
Those who know the meaning of DYING TO SELF and would never put another man down who's fruit is good.


What has just now entered my mind is this "What if..." statement now brought forth.


WHAT IF .... THE WORLD NOW BLAMES US BECAUSE OF THIS QUOTE THAT WAS POSTED TODAY ?

His last sermon -

http://media.tscnyc.org/wmedia/20090118S1.wma


Shalom!

_________________
Mike Balog

March 16, 2009
Mass Demonstration Defies Pakistani Government
By JANE PERLEZ
LAHORE, Pakistan — A crackdown by the Pakistani government to prevent a national demonstration and detain the country’s leading opposition figure collapsed on Sunday, and what had been a clash between the police and protesters transformed into a huge antigovernment rally.

In what analysts here called an unprecedented reversal by security forces, phalanxes of riot policemen here in Lahore melted away rather than continue to confront protesters who had rallied around the opposition leader, Nawaz Sharif, when he defied a house arrest order early Sunday.

By early evening, the sight of exuberant anti-government crowds in Lahore — a mix of Mr. Sharif’s loyalists, supporters of smaller opposition parties and ordinary people with their young children — encouraged people in other cities in the Punjab Province to come out on the streets

In a long convoy of cars, Mr. Sharif headed toward Islamabad, with supporters ready to greet him along the 200 mile route, said Ahsan Iqbal, the information secretary for Mr. Sharif’s party, the Pakistan Muslim League-N said.

Party workers armed with cranes were removing shipping containers placed as roadblocks by the police at junctions along the route to the capital, Mr. Iqbal said.

Mr. Sharif began the day under house arrest at his home outside Lahore, hemmed in by barbed wire and security roadblocks. But he denounced the crackdown as illegal and said he would move to address an opposition demonstration at the city center and continue with a national opposition march on the capital planned for Monday. He left his house in a convoy of cars that broke through a ring of police barriers.

Then the convoy reached the main thoroughfare in Lahore, known as The Mall, it was joined by truckloads of supporters, who waved banners and shouted slogans calling for the restoration of an independent judiciary. Apparently with the help of sympathetic police officials, Mr. Sharif’s convoy was able to move slowly toward the area around the General Post Office building, where riot police and protesters began scuffling.

A phalanx of several hundred police officers in riot gear fired shells of tear gas for more than an hour at the protesters. The police then brought in armored vehicles to fire more rounds of tear gas as stones and empty tear gas shells littered the road. Some protesters set tires on fire, and police officers wielding batons chased them.

But by 5 p.m., the police disappeared and huge crowds, on foot and in cars, enveloped the Mall. Green, red and white banners of with portraits of Mr. Sharif were held aloft as other groups, including Jamaat-i-Islami, a right wing Islamist group, joined what turned into the anti-government demonstration that the government had feared all along. The leader of the lawyers’ movement, Aitzaz Ahsan, moved toward the High Court, accompanied by scores of lawyers, to make a speech.

One of the senior officials in the Lahore government, the chief magistrate, Sajjad Bhutta, told reporters he refused to carry out what he called the illegal acts of the police crackdown. He appeared among the crowds on the mall, surrounded by cheers and waving flags.

Mr. Ahsan said that protesters would try to defy the government’s efforts to keep them away from Islamabad and would attempt to converge on the capital from various points around the country on Monday.

“The strategy is simple,” Mr. Ahsan said. “The long march is on for an indefinite period.”

There appeared to have been a decision, either by provincial officials, many of whom support Mr. Sharif, or at the national level, to allow Mr. Sharif to proceed.

A statement by the Home Department in Lahore released shortly after the police fired tear gas said that the police had taken the action only after the protesters turned violent. And in Islamabad, Farahnaz Ispahani, a spokeswoman for President Asif Ali Zardari, said on Sunday that the detention orders for leaders of the PML-N had been issued for the sake of their security.

“The government cannot be responsible for someone inflaming crowds,” she said. “It’s not a mature move. From a security view we don’t think this is a wise move.”

Still, the profound turnaround, from government crackdown to a huge anti-government show, was greeted with amazement by analysts and lawyers in Pakistan. During the eight year military rule of President Pervez Musharraf from 1999 to early last year, there were no similar efforts to crackdown on demonstrators in such a way, they said. For example, the lawyers movement organized large convoys through the countryside in 2007 in protest against the dismissal of chief justice Iftikhar Chaudhry.

But the convoys were allowed to proceed largely untouched by security forces, they said.

“This is the first time in the history of Pakistan that the police and civil administration have defied orders by the government to control public demonstrations,” said Ashtar Ali, a corporate lawyer who supports the Pakistan Muslim League-N. “The writ of the government has failed.”

A mirror incident played out in Islamabad earlier on Sunday, when police officers in riot gear arrested Mahdum Javed Hashemi, a senior member of the Pakistan Muslim League-N, plucking him from the passenger seat of a purple Toyota Land Cruiser.

A small crowd of supporters shouted “We disagree!” as Mr. Hashemi was led toward a police truck.

“We’re not running because we’re not afraid of this illegal order,” Mr. Hashemi said. “Even if I’m gone, my party workers and the lawyers will keep on working for the freedom of the judiciary.”

Ms. Ispahani, the spokeswoman for Mr. Zardari, said that Mr. Hashemi had been detained because “we want to keep him home, we want to keep him safe.”

The current battle between Mr. Zardari and Mr. Sharif, a former prime minister, began on Feb. 25 when the president imposed executive rule on the Punjab Legislature, the stronghold of Mr. Sharif’s party.

Hours earlier, the Supreme Court had issued its ruling disqualifying the Sharifs from holding office. To consolidate their opposition to Mr. Zardari, the brothers joined forces with the lawyers’ movement, which had called for a national protest and sit-in in Islamabad on March 16.

Appeals by the United States to President Asif Ali Zardari and to Nawaz Sharif to cool the political crisis in the past few days appeared to have been rebuffed.

In a last-minute move to mollify the opposition, Mr. Zardari’s spokesman said Saturday night that the government would seek a review of a Supreme Court decision last month that disqualified the Sharif brothers from holding elective office. But Mr. Sharif has said that such a gesture would be insufficient to head off the protests.

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton called Mr. Zardari and Mr. Sharif on Saturday evening to discuss the situation before the announcement was made, spokesmen for the two men said. Although Mr. Zardari’s gesture came after she called, it seemed not enough to deter Mr. Sharif.

Mr. Zardari also said in a statement by his spokesman that the government would review how Supreme Court judges, fired two years ago by President Pervez Musharraf, could be restored. This would be done, he said, in accordance with a document signed three years ago by Mr. Sharif and former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto.

I first came to know David Wilkerson after the publishing of The Vision. I read the Classics only most of my saved life and the only "live" humans I followed after that time period was Keith Green and his Last Days Newsletter, which featured David Wilkerson, Winkie Pratney, the Classics, and Leonard Ravenhill.

After Keith's death - I'd keep up on David Wilkerson through Teen / World Challenge.

In 1999 - I took a total fast from DW.

Only this year did I feel compelled to have a listen again from finding on another Site - David's last Sermon from January this year.

As I mentioned just now on the Chip Brogden thread on the Articles section - all the messages from TSC this year have brought me nothing but More Faith and More Comfort in Jesus and His Word.


Other than that - Happy Birthday Mike Balog! :)

You guys are making us Calvinist look good.

In the old testament the test for a prophet was more in the line of accuracy.

In the New Testament we are told to weigh and judge prophecy by the body of Christ, a check that was not performed in the old testament.

Jesus did not repeat the criterium of accuracy, but rather said that we should recognize a prophet by his character.

Bileam prophecied accurately, yet he was a false prophet. Jona prophesied, and God refrained from fulfilling it because Ninive repented. Yet Jona did not have God's heart.

In the NT a prophet must know God's heart and
be Christ-like over and above beeing accurate. The Spirit filled body of Christ is entrusted to performs the accuracy test and compliance with the rest of scripture.


Matthew and other scriptures even warn us of prophet who prophecy accurately and may even validate themselves through a sign that takes place but still they are false prophets because they do not have Christ's likeness.



Matthew 7

A Tree and Its Fruit
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

I can tell you a little anekdote from my own life.
I had Christian brothers who visited me one day. We stood in my porch in the early evening hours. I said to them: Look into this directing in the sky and when you see a sign you know that I can fortell the future. Seconds later a light blip appeared in the sky in the direction that I pointed to. They were flabberghasted! Later I told them that I checked a website for Iridium sattelite flares that predicts sattelite passed by time and geographical coordinates.

_________________
Wayne Kraus

20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.