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JoanM
Member



Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797


 Re: Wilkerson's message - Additional reflection

[u]Jimdied2sin[/u]: Surely many are more awake and watchful as the result of Brother David's message. Maybe he regularly preaches repentance and lifting clean hands in prayer to his congregation so that his congregation is repentant in addition to praying. It would be hard to be a preaching Brother and not preach repentance, though I don't hear teaching on what it is often. Although a believer”s first encounter with repentance is most remarkable, it seems to be more of a heart attitude than a once-in-a-life-time event. (I am no theologian.) When I listened to the Wilkerson clip Greg posted (Where are the praying men?), I heard “I don't want to be part of this,” rather than, “I have been part of this.” Maybe there is no difference. Prayer so easily follows repentance and forgiveness strengthens it. Brother David's message just lacked an encouragement to this which we all can easily add as a first response.

[u]Philologos[/u]: Interesting ideas that could be part of a useful framework. I also thought that God does make a connection [your “map”/”link”] between “that [u]repentance[/u]” and “this [u]withheld[/u] catastrophe” at times (ex. Nineveh). When the Kingdom of heaven is at hand, John and Jesus cried out “repent.” Of course your Luke 13: 4-5 passage is a great example. But then, maybe your book is not heading in the direction of repentance. The goodness of God leads to repentance and the knowledge of our peril, despite appearances, was effective in some times of revival.

Secondly, there are some major sin event-effect connections made: for example between the “high places,” Saul's act, touching the ark, the length of captivity etc. Maybe not the sort you are talking about?

Some church leaders responded to 9/11 and stock market events with prayer/calls for prayer. Few responded with repentance/calls for repentance. Many spoke comfort. Where is that book: The Life and Times of Repentance .

Edit/addition: Wilkerson's whole message “Hell Shaking Prayer” suggests it was an oversight that he did not encourage prayer and repentance for prayerlessness in his recent communication.

 2009/3/10 18:54Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Or we've just been wiped of the map altogether.



Think Krispy stated something many have not thought about...we don't know about America with respect to the end times. I personally feel that many Christians place America as a vital role in the end times. However I don't know this and only assume this because it seems to me that many feel we are on the same "field" as Israel. Many think "we" are the apple of Gods eye.

Think Krispy made a great point in his comments.
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I will say this tho... in order for things to line up for the end times (which I believe, and have believed even before this crisis, are upon us) the United States has to be either on the side of the world against Israel, or on the sidelines because militarily or monetarily we can no longer support Israel. Or we've just been wiped of the map altogether.

I think it's the first. While I think WE THE PEOPLE will still generally support Israel, our government is showing signs of weakening support. Add to that the major budget cuts the government is making on the military (which is the only thing in the budget that Obama deems worthy of cutting)... and then mix in our current economic plunge to the basement. What do you get? A recipe for not only disaster, but also quickly approaching the day when our brilliant leaders in DC will tell Israel "you're on your own, pal" ... which is tantamount to forsaking them, i.e. cursing them.

 2009/3/10 20:45
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
JoanM on 2009/3/10 20:54:56
Philologos: Interesting ideas that could be part of a useful framework. I also thought that God does make a connection [your “map”/”link”] between “that repentance” and “this withheld catastrophe” at times (ex. Nineveh). When the Kingdom of heaven is at hand, John and Jesus cried out “repent.” Of course your Luke 13: 4-5 passage is a great example. But then, maybe your book is not heading in the direction of repentance. The goodness of God leads to repentance and the knowledge of our peril, despite appearances, was effective in some times of revival.

Secondly, there are some major sin event-effect connections made: for example between the “high places,” Saul's act, touching the ark, the length of captivity etc. Maybe not the sort you are talking about?


My book is about the new covenant and that chapter was part of explaining why Old Testament prophecies don't always work out in the way we might expect. I was not thinking about biblical examples of the mapping of sin to retribution but of current day ones. For the biblical examples we can be 100% that these are accurate mappings. It is in our current day when people make these connections with specific sin to specific retribution that I think we are in grave danger of being judgemental and being misled.

The statement of Jeremiah is a universal axiom as far as I can see...

[color=0033FF] At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. Jer 18:6-10 KJVS[/color]

While there is life there is hope. I see that of individuals there are times when the scripture says 'do not pray for him' but I am not aware of that ever being addressed to a nation.

I was first alerted to Dave Wilkerson's blog by a friend who asked 'what do you make of this?' I think an equally important question might be 'what do I do with this?' That is surely always the right response to a word which someone says has come from God.

I have to be honest and say to myself; 'do I believe this prediction?' and my honest answer is 'no'. So the next question is 'so you believe this will not happen?' and my answer to that also is 'no'. By 'believe' I mean active faith. Do I have active faith that this calamity will overtake New York? No I don't. Do I have active faith that this calamity will NOT overtake New York? No I don't.

Do I have opinions? Oh yes, by the truck load, but I try not to exercise faith in my 'opinions' and I certainly try not to exercise faith in other people's opinions.

So I am left with the question. "what does God expect me to do with this David Wilkerson blog?" I can pray and I do for David Wilkerson and John Piper and others who have a high profile and whose words are listened to by thousands of attentive hearers. They, and I, carry a heavy burden...

[color=0033FF]My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. James 3:1 NKJV[/color]


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2009/3/11 4:52Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Where is ...

Dear Ron,

Thank you.

I would like to request a signed copy with any personal note when it becomes available - Thanking you in advance.

It is not speaking season for yours truly and I have been taking this all in ... across the board, and not this 'board' only.

It is always wonderful when someone else can articulate that which you might struggle to convey;

Quote:
I have to be honest and say to myself; 'do I believe this prediction?' and my honest answer is 'no'. So the next question is 'so you believe this will not happen?' and my answer to that also is 'no'. By 'believe' I mean active faith. Do I have active faith that this calamity will overtake New York? No I don't. Do I have active faith that this calamity will NOT overtake New York? No I don't.



If we were not in the era of writing through the avenue of keyboards, my trash can would be full of crumpled up paper. This past Sunday I spent a considerable amount of time doing some backlogging and research into the times surrounding the now infamous "Y2K" phenomenon. Had half a dozen web pages up - Pulling bits and pieces - Quotes and opinions of all the terror that was to be at hand. Probably the most interesting was ... let me pull out one of the scraps;

[i]In the process I dig some backlogging and research into the year 2000 - The whole "Y2K" phenomenon as it seemed to have such close parallels with this particular space in time. Dug up many articles - Old pronouncements of expectations and disaster even a treatise that was very clever and demonstrative of my premise here. Something along the lines of "[i]The Myth of Self Fulfilling prophecy[/i]" it was in essence a nay-saying of the 'naysayers' who were yet in denial over all that was to transpire when the clock struck 12, going into 2001.

I intended to quip various quotes, pull it altogether and allow it to speak for itself. And yet, I couldn't do it - I ended up disgusted and feeling practically ill from digesting it all. Spent a good portion of the morning doing research and scrapped it all.[/i]

What is rather unsettling to me is something that has longed bothered and has oftened manifested itself here - For some of those who have been around these parts and I know Philologos will recall our brothers Rahman and IRONMAN - They were speaking "prophetically" about all these things that have now 'come to pass' albeit about a year too soon. They were assured that this would all take place in 2007.
The whole economic collapse and if I recall correctly a certain judgment upon America.

To be honest I did have to give it all something of a 'Hmmmm ...' being this side of it and despite the missed 'dating' aspect. There is a sense where one could 'go back' and say, 'well it really did begin towards the end of that year, it just hadn't manifested itself ...'.

All that to say I still am quite bothered by something that I have a great deal of experience with and wonder ...

Are we living in our imaginations? That is tying future expectations of those things conjured up in our heads, derived from present ... pulse taking and then making pronouncements of our speculations? They do not even have to be uttered in one sense - You can 'imagine' that your spouse is 'thinking' or doing A and B and begin to convince yourself that it is in fact true. The question that always arises and that I must continually force myself to ask - 'Do you know this for a [i]fact[/i]?' Not a gathering of evidence for support of a premise (And not on the flip-side to especially ignore it), but is the premise faulty and more to the point, why am I doing this? Do I [i]know[/i]? Or do I not [i]know[/i]?

Generally speaking, I do not and will chide myself - "Then stop it."

[i]Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.[/i] Ecc 8:17


Quote:
Do I have opinions? Oh yes, by the truck load, but I try not to exercise faith in my 'opinions' and I certainly try not to exercise faith in other people's opinions.



Well said.

Ron, my real trouble with these things is the sheer volume - This forum of late has been inundated with these things. Out in the main it is no different. It is [i]speculation[/i] run rampant - I cannot shake just how much of a stake in the current economic malaise is self perpetuating - Self fulfilling. It is [i]Fear[/i], everywhere - Nowadays everybody is not only full of opinion but an expert as well.

"This is [i]that[/i]" and I have to ask - Is it?

Could all of this simply be ... [i]a natural course of stupid human events[/i]?

It's own judgment for it's own failures - From the greed and manipulation of all sides - From the Governments role to the bankers to the individuals who got themselves in over their heads. It is only one piece of the puzzle but likely the largest. I had opined elsewhere a certain ... apprehension at the idea that the responsible ones could be included in the general 'all' - Not 'all' are to be blamed, but they unfortunately will get to burden the responsibility of the irresponsible.

If I was to be very blunt about it - Too much fear mongering. That may be quite unintentional, intentional or otherwise. I am not advocating "Peace, peace when there is no peace" and it is not to turn a blind eye towards what is currently ... present. It is [i]bad[/i] out there and to turn the imagination around and opine that "Isn't as bad as everyone is saying ..." would be just as hypocritical of me.

But still I wonder and as you so well articulated, I cannot put faith in any of it.

I am rambling, as usual - You did thwart an earlier attempt that I was thinking of presenting out here under the heading "Where is the wise man"? I was quite ready to lay a charge and even change the title to "Grow up". There is something that I have observed of late across the board and that is ... immaturity - A serious charge. But I have been observing grown men acting and speaking like children - Emoting overruling 'sound mind' - on both sides of the pond. "We" of all people ought to be of a sound mind and not bound up in so much speculating ...

Another crumpled piece of paper;

[i]Interestingly I too also had the notion of mentioning Benny Hinn as an example - If it was himself that had uttered the same this whole matter would have a completely different tone. The differences in character stop there however and so will I.[/i]

I think it puts many of us in a quandary because it is David Wilkerson, who is of a different [i]ilk[/i] altogether. There is a reluctance on the one hand and a readiness to defend on the other.
Quite understandable. But I so appreciated Philologos note of not being intimidated - That is not boasting nor inferring .. it's just not [i]fearing[/i] - and;

Quote:
'what do I do with this?'



One last scrap from the trash can;



I am left with observation and would ply deeper.

[b]Men of Old[/b]

This site promotes and brings forth men of a different caliber predominately. There is much of what is now current that is conspicuously absent from their character. They were certainly far more wise than us and far better equipped in conduct, in experience and in constitution - For these reasons and more, is it not why so many of us appeal [i]back[/i] to them? And is it not where most of the charges at what has now become and what can only be called a 'Care-less Christianity', a 'easy beliveism', a call and a cry to return to "old Path's" and old ways from these [i]old men[/i] ...

They had something collectively that we lack. We tend far too often towards jumping the gun - They, were reserved - Cautious - Thoughtful - Articulate. They took the charge of enthusiasm literally - We, are now "Charismatic" in the extreme. I am hardly thinking of the realm of gifts but more so in conduct.

Let me appeal to someone who had much to say about the core of these sort of matters, who spoke much about [i]truth[/i], about being [i]exacting[/i] - Art Katz.

I had left off here and it is peculiar in itself. There is much that I was left quite unsure about in those things that Art would often tie together regarding the plight of the Jews, of Israel and 'how' these things would all work out. But in the core of what he so often tried to articulate was of a principle - I should insert here that he often did indeed second guess himself - But these things ought to be [i]exacting[/i]. All of these things that 'we' as Christians are putting forth should have a heightened sense of responsibility. If we take them at their face value, recognize that weight of responsibility that even Philologos drew attention to ...

What are the unbelieving to do and think? Are we promoting a God who is ... accidental and sloppy, who seemingly tells His people contradicting things? If these things [b]do not come to pass[/b], what then? And if they are to believed ... Where is the seriousness ... Where is the right reverential [i]fear of God[/i] on both sides of the pond? I am not at all impressed with the ease that most of these things are taken with, even those who may be led to believe this is all eminent. If this is to be [i]so[/i] you ought to be livid with indignation at the 'naysayers' ... Have we at all forgotten that if this is so, just how [i]exacting[/i] it all is?

My problem is just there. There is not more than two sides to these things; It is so or it is not so. This, I believe is not precisely that sort of mandate that is so often expressed by our modern day imagination dwellers (Otherwise promoted as 'Prophets'). Wilkerson has at least been careful to qualify most of those things he believes he is seeing\hearing\believing. But I am also left wondering when I have received so many of his past newsletters championing trust and not fearing ...

Let me wonder out loud and take this back to something Compton noted elsewhere. [i]IF[/i] someone like DW or you or I - If we were far removed from all the news and media, let's hypothesize say for the last year or so. Holed up in the wilderness, away from it all - No idea what is presently occurring in the 'state' of things - Not knowing, the likelihood that things are more or less as we left them ...

What then? If there was something intimated to our spirit of a coming calamity- [i]Then[/i] it might have more bearing - It would be coming out of 'left field' to the burden bearer.

Well, that I can see could be wrought with problems and misunderstanding. It just seems to me that those things that spoke forward in scripture were not included with a sort of 'might' happen that is so often conveyed in modernity. it is at least so often taken that way. Certainly many things were predicated with an [i]if[/i] behind them - That the Lord would relent - But the others never had a 'might' entangled with them - It was [i]so[/i]. The thing came to pass. It happened. There [i]was[/i] a famine ...

Mat 6:34 [i]Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.[/i]




_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/3/11 10:02Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Ron, my real trouble with these things is the sheer volume - This forum of late has been inundated with these things. Out in the main it is no different. It is speculation run rampant - I cannot shake just how much of a stake in the current economic malaise is self perpetuating - Self fulfilling. It is Fear, everywhere - Nowadays everybody is not only full of opinion but an expert as well.



Well said Mike and Ron.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2009/3/11 10:50Profile
crusader
Member



Joined: 2006/2/22
Posts: 413
Australia:

 Re:

i was going to post another response to this but there is alot of good reasoning in the posts already but i will say this the more i sit with my lord and the closer i get to him the holy spirit definatley shows me how low the morals are in the world at the moment. in a spiritual typology all i see is sodom and gomora (not sure how to spell gomora as i am tired) The lord that i know personally will only put up with this arrogance and rebellion for long before he lifts his grace and allows a cruel master to enslave the nations because of their sinfull stench which rises to the heavens. when this will happen is totally up to the lord. how or where i dont know but i do wait for the day that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess Christs righteousness and tears of repentance wash the streets of every nation. it is important to preach everyday as if it is the last day to preach if we wait for certain signs from people then we can calculate when we need to witness and when we dont. evidence of this is when people claimed that the world would end in 2000 all of a sudden there was a rise of attendences in churches as people escaped the wrath to come. but when the world didnt end these numbers started to die of. all snakes escape the burning fire of destruction but they are still snakes at the end of the day ( i heard that quote and loved it) just my thoughts


_________________
karl rashleigh

 2009/3/15 9:12Profile









 Re:

Personally, I would rather be in my room on my face before God searching my own heart and pleading with Christ for more mercy and more grace than to spend my time debating on whether this prophesy is true or not. Brethren, in just a short time, whatever comes to pass will PROVE whether this word is true, or whether it is false. Then all the speculation here will be worthless. Let us not speak against it, lest we be found to be speaking against the counsel of God Himself, but rather let us apply to ourselves the practical spiritual implications that come with this shaking word; implications which consist of humbling ourselves in repentance and forsaking our worldly idols and of leaning on the arm of the flesh, from lukewarmness, immorality, and pride. We need to be crying out to God for a fresh baptism of His Spirit to enable us to stand in the evil day ahead. The first Christians in Acts 2-4 and on were able to stand the most severe persecutions, famines, and trying times because of the great measure of Holy Spirit power and real, close, fellowship with Jesus in which they were habitually walking. Trying times are coming, no doubt, for the Word of God tells us so. Rather than speculate, let us fear God and take heed to the warnings of Scripture:

[b]1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.[/b]

Why should it take a prophetic word from a contemporary man of God to shake us, since a prophet spoke infallibly 2,000 years ago to warn us to be sober in the fear of God and watch over our souls in prayer, in close fellowship with God every day? And why did he say this? Because THE END OF ALL THINGS WAS AT HAND.

[b]2 Peter 3:10-12 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (11). Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, (12). Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?[/b]

What it all boils down to is this: we each need our own word from the Lord. It may not be a loud, audible word from Heaven, or vision, or dream, but if we have the Holy Ghost within us then we have the "still and small voice" within that gives us spiritual illumination to guide our steps according to His witness within our own selves. We all need to be sensitive to the Spirit, loving Jesus and being loved by Him in overflowing measure, because the love of Christ will conquer all, nothing can seperate us from it. Let us abide in His love, truly, fully, passionately, consumedly, and then, and only then, nothing else will shake us. "There is no fear in love".

I believe it's such an imprudent thing to do to speculate whether a prophecy from a credible source like Wilkerson is true and to debate it constantly because of doubts in our own minds when we haven't heard from God. Just be still and watch God's hand move. And fear God and keep His commandments. And spend the time seeking Him, rather than speculating. Once you hear His voice for yourself, no amount of speculation in the world could move you. If the Lord has spoken to you, do what He says. If He hasn't, then be quiet until He does. "If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God".

[b]1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?[/b]



 2009/3/18 1:20





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