quote;
"psalm1,

God doesn't need defending but He does give us scriptures to guide us if we will be guided. If you want to judge preachers, judge away.

I stand by the Scriptures that I posted."

Amen Lysa I agree with all your statements.

To Psalm1:

Within the body of Christ are ravenous wolves, that are disguised as sheep, that teach false doctrine. However, they do not want to be exposed of the false doctrine that they teach. We also have ravenous wolves, disguised as sheep, that are in the music department, and others in the nursery, as well as others sitting in the pews. The Christian today is constantly rebuked by others in the body of Christ for judging other Christians. What does the Bible say about this issue? I truly believe that we are in the last of the last days,[b] and not very many people want to hear sound doctrine, and are content with false teaching (i.e. "prosperity teaching"; Name it and claim it, blag it and grab it; the "social gospel"; etc. etc. etc.- everything but the true Gospel- Christ Crucified, and the co-crucifixion of the believer with Jesus Christ--the death to self of the believer so that Christ can do HIS works through him). Today, the believer is puffed up, with a big black Bible under his arm, on a mission to help God out. God cannot use this type of false Christian, because this type of Christian is trying to do everything on his own, through his own flesh.[/b]

[b]So, how are we to judge sound doctrine---what is good doctrine, and what is bad doctrine?

We are to judge what Preachers are teaching and what our “brothers & sisters” are saying to us by the very Word of God, the Anvil, that will expose and break and destroy false doctrine when it is compared to it.[/b]

1 Cor 2:15
15.[b] But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.[/b]

2 Timothy 4:2-4
2. Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season;[b] reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.[/b]

1 John 4:1-6
1[b]. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.[/b]
2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Revelation 2:2
2. [b]I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:[/b]

2 Cor 6: 17. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

1 Corinthians 5:1-13

1. It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4.[b] In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7. Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:[/b]
8. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9. I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10. Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13. [b] But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.[/b]

Romans 16:17-18
17. Now I beseech you, brethren,[b] mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.[/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

My dear brother,

I recently ended up hearing David Servant's message called the "Goat and the Sheep" (I guess I got the names correct). I found that he did have a gift for preaching, and made the truths very attractive. Yet in that very sermon he says that he was a prosperity preacher till God corrected him.
Maybe there were those who understood the truth before him and left the congregation, maybe there were those who stayed put even after knowing the truth, since they were waiting on God's clear direction and all the same praying for their pastor. And offcourse there were those who lacked discernment, possibly the majority which also included those who got offended with the message of the cross later on.
I guess you need to take this to the Lord and pray for your family as well as for this pastor, if you are attending this church. If you find another church that is helping you to be a wholehearted disciple of christ, maybe with much prayer you may need to go there. But wait on the Lord, be faithful to the truth you already know and God will give you clarity.

The other thing I have begun to see is that, I am so easily impressed by the preaching ability of someone who can preach good, i am so easily floored by someone who is able to show me new truths. But that is when I began to realize that we need to drink of the Spirit. Jesus said that you will know them by their fruits and not by their gift. maybe there is a lot of theology and doctrine one still needs to know, but we can start by seeing if the fruit of the Spirit is evident.

Jesus saved Zaccheaus by a dinner invitation. Jesus used some strong words against the pharasees. If that was all the sermon that we heard from Jesus, maybe we wil have biased views. But when we see Him, and how He lived, His life, then all doubt is removed.

Trust God to give you clarity and meanwhile pray for this pastor and believe. God can make great men out of stones that master builders reject.

Yes there is wisdom in the counsel of many. yet take it to the Lord in secret and He will weed out the soulish from the spiritual and give you clarity, becuse He wants to and loves you more than you do :-)

Hello Brotehr Vakagul:

I do understand your position on this matter. You have been very clear.

Please provide Scripture that supports your position on the need to continue with a Pastor that is not teaching sound doctrine.

Why on earth should I continue to be corrupted by a Pastor that is not teaching God's truth?

Again, please post [b]Biblical prooftext[/b] that supports your position.

Sincerely,

Walter

Dear brother Walter,
I appologise if I have come out wrong in saying that we should suffer wrong doctrine.
Paul writes to Timothy telling him not to suffer wrong doctrine. Also before the Lord admonishes the church at Ephesus, He comends them on testing what people preached.
But I also wanted to add the fact that the Lord said that we need to test the tree by its fruits.
There is in Christendom the possibility of stressing too much on one aspect of the truth than the full counsel of God. This is definitely not what God wants, but it is so.
But this could be in ignorance or something that has so occupied the preachers mind.
I am not commenting it is so in this case, but there are times when in a Church you might hear the same theme over and over again, because the Spirit wants to convey and drill down one particular fact.
Having said that all I wanted to say is that I just heard one sermon on which he speaks on God's unconditional love. I do not know how this man lives. And that probably along with my own limitation might not allow me to come to any conclusive evidence of whether one is a heretic or not.
So my suggestion to the brother was to put it before the Lord and ask Him how one needs to approach this matter. It may be that he needs to find a new fellowship, it might be that he needs to with much prayer and in love ask the pastor about any doctrinal inconsistency he might find, or it might be that as he stands for the light he has received, God will allow the reproach of Christ to fall on him and be asked to leave the church, himself being called a heretic.
I have found myself getting offended by the words used in sermons, and sometimes i am right and sometimes it is because I held on to the words rather than sensed the spirit.
So the gist is, though we have shared our thoughts and the Scriptural references, it is for Josh to take it the Lord and the Lord will give clarity as to what the situation is and what he has to do.
But most definitely, do not suffer wrong doctrine. Like Paul, even if it be Peter, the one who walked with the Lord, stand steadfast in the complete counsel of God. (I am refering to how Paul publicly stood against Peter and corrected him. Peter was trying to propogate a worng doctrine by segrgating the Jew and the gentile. Yes Peter was at that point of time advocating a wrong doctrine.)
So to summarize,
- do not suffer wrong doctrine.
- whether one should continue there? Seek the lord for clarity, while standing steadfast in the light that God has given you. becuase I have just heard one sermon and I do not know the life of this man, the fruit he bears. What I am saying is that I am not sure about this specific instance. Maybe one needs to flee... maybe ... I confess my ignorance here and ask Josh to seek the Lord for clarity regarding what he needs to do in this instance.
- Do not be corrupted by wrong doctrine. test each word you hear with God's word and in prayer. The Lord will take care of the person who will come to Him in humble sincerity.