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Isaiah64
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Joined: 2006/9/27
Posts: 85


 Some good sermons about Romans 7

Hello to everyone, I have come across some really interesting sermons by Charles Leiter concerning the issue of Romans 7:14-25 and what it is talking about, it's the most balanced view of this topic that I have ever heard of. Even if you disagree I think it's worth the listen, I know this brother knows Paul Washer and they sell his book on the Heartcry website, so it would be wise not to dimiss what he says so quickly.
I don't know if we're allowed to directly post audio sermons from other websites here, so I'll just post the link. There are 4 good messages that I've heard so far:

1) A Gracious Interaction with the Wrong Reformed View of Romans 7 (What is Good and Bad about this View?) - Sermon #86

2) Testimonies Concerning Changing Views on Romans 7 & Examining the Wrong “Deeper Life” View of Romans 7 - Sermon #87

3) The Wrong Perfectionist, Sinless or Wesleyan View of Romans 7 - Sermon #88

4) Q&A/Bible Study on Romans 6 and 7

You can listen to them [url=http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?currPage=1&keyword=Charles%5ELeiter&SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&AudioOnly=false&SortBy=added]HERE.[/url]

Hope this is a blessing to you all.

 2009/2/17 11:20Profile
clintstone
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Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re: Some good sermons about Romans 7

the writer of romans. paul . was not speaking of himself in romans chapter 7. Paul was a perfect , Holy , and blameless man , as he himself says he is . romans chapter 7 is a example of a carnal unbelieving christian, when paul was saying I do the thing s I would not and I do not do the things i would , He is not speaking of himself there. romans chapter 8 Paul exsplains the deliverance from the dilema of being an unbelieving carnal christian. and not receiving what chapter 6 of romans says in verses 3-8. walking in newness of life is sinless perfection.


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Clint Demoret

 2009/2/22 13:35Profile
HomeFree89
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Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Quote:
when paul was saying I do the thing s I would not and I do not do the things i would , He is not speaking of himself there.



Then why would he use the word "I"?


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Jordan

 2009/2/22 16:52Profile
wtninChrist
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Joined: 2009/2/17
Posts: 41
Muscle Shoals, AL

 Re: Some good sermons about Romans 7

I have read Bro. Leiters book ( justification and Regeneration) it is sold at my church.He has solid views on justification and regeneration you will not find any better.He states his views on Romans 7 in the book. I am not to say or voice what I think on the matter,but may I point you to a sermon by John Piper (Who Is This Divided Man? ) at desiringgod.org do read my you be blessed.

 2009/2/22 17:26Profile
clintstone
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Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

he was speaking in the third person. He was not describing himself. he was not a wretched miserable man trapped in sin at the time He wrote romans. he was giving an example of one that minded the flesh in romans 7 and he gives how to be delivered of that fleshy minded state in romans chapter 8


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Clint Demoret

 2009/2/22 20:09Profile
Isaiah64
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Joined: 2006/9/27
Posts: 85


 Re:

Hi wtninChrist, thank you for the recommendation, I am familiar with Piper's views on the subject and would disagree, but I'm sure there is still some spiritual wisdom to glean from the message. I'll check it out.
I believe Leiter gives an excellent and balanced response to the Reformed view in the 1st message above.

I've also read Justification and Regeneration. These messages really complement the Romans 7 chapter in the book, adding much more valuable information.

 2009/2/22 23:36Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265


 Re: Romans 7

Rom. 7:22 "For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;"

Paul delights - this is a strong and inclusive word. And, after the inward man, - thus revealing himself as regenerate throughout this struggle: No unregenerate man would say, (unless profane) "It is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me:" For,

(1) An unregenerate man is not conscious of a moral power which is not himself: for he has but the one nature, he is "in the flesh."

(2) An unregenerate man could not say, "What I hate, that I do." For only born-again people hate evil. "Ye that love Jehovah, hate evil" (Ps. 97.10), and David could say of himself, "I hate every false way" (Ps 119:104). But of the wicked he wrote, "He abhorreth not evil" (Ps 36:4).

(3) An unregenerate man could not say, "What I would not, that I do, -I consent to the Law that it is good." An unregenerate man resists the Law, that he may "justify himself." A regenerate man consents to the Law's being good, no matter how it judges what he finds himself doing!(Ro 7:16).

(4) The unregenerate man could not say, "I delight in the Law of God after the inward man." For by nature all men are "children of wrath, "" alienated from the life of God"; and "the mind of the flesh is enmity against God, not subject to the Law of God." Before his conversion, Saul, as we saw, could help to stone Stephen, -"verily thinking he ought" to do it; but Paul was not then seeking holiness (as the man in Romans Seven is), but was secure in his own righteousness as a legalist.

(5) The unregenerate man could not say, "Wretched man that I am!" For he could not see his wretchedness! His whole life was to build up that which was the flesh.

(6) If you claim that the "wretched man" of Romans Seven is an unregenerate man under conviction of sin, the complete reply is, that this man of Romans Seven is crying for deliverance, -not from sin's guilt and penalty, but from its power. Not for forgiveness of sins, but help against indwelling sin. This man is exercised, not about the day of judgment, but about a condition of bondage to that which he hates. The Jews on the Day of Pentecost, and the jailor at Philippi, cried out in terror, "What shall we do to be saved?" It was guilt and danger they felt. But this man in Romans Seven cries, "Who shall deliver me" (not from guilt) but, "from this body of death?" No one but a quickened soul ever knows about a "body of death"!

(7) But perhaps the most striking argument of all is in the closing words of Chapter Seven-verse 25: "Therefore then I myself with the mind, am subject to God's Law, but with the flesh to sin's law." Here we have both spiritual life and consciousness; also, discernment and discrimination of both his real true new self, which chooses God and His will and of the flesh which will continue to choose "sin's law": and all this conclusion after he has realized deliverance from the "body of death" through our Lord Jesus Christ!

Newell

"The writer genuinely deplores the fact that due to the law of sin still operating in him, he is unable to serve God as completely and whole-heartedly as he desires. The poignant grief here expressed is definitely that of a believer. No unbeliever would ever be able to be so filled with sorrow because of his sins! The author of the outcry is Paul, speaking for every child of God. The cry he utters is one of distress, but not of despair, as verse 25 proves. Paul suffers agony, to be sure, the wretchedness brought about by strenuous exertion; that is, by trying hard, but never satisfactorily succeeding, to live in complete harmony with God’s will but failing again and again. He is looking forward eagerly to the time when this struggle will have ended." (Hendriksen)

"Paul is expressing in forceful terms his dismay at what sin does to him. It is, moreover, important that we understand this as applying to the regenerate. It is all too easy to take our Christian status for granted. We so readily remember our victories and gloss over our defeats. We slip into a routine and refuse to allow ourselves to be disturbed by what we see as occasional and minor slips. But a sensitive conscience and a genuine sorrow for every sin are the prerequisites of spiritual depth." (Morris)

"In this section Paul continues to speak in the first person singular, but he leaves the past tense and uses the present. Not only so, but there is an inward tension here which was absent from Romans 7:7-13. There, sin assaulted him by stealth and struck him down; here, he puts up an agonizing resistance, even if he cannot beat down the enemy. There, he described what happened to him when he lived in 'this present age'; here, 'the age to come' has already arrived, although the old age has not yet passed away. He is a man living simultaneously on two planes, eagerly longing to live a life in keeping with the higher plane, but sadly aware of the strength of indwelling sin that keeps on pulling him down to the lower plane." (F.F.Bruce)

A study of the greek words used in romans 7 will bear out the fact that Paul does not speak in the third person but "...continues to speak in the first person singular, but he leaves the past tense and uses the present", as F.F. Bruce has correctly stated above.

Would the one who said, "he was speaking in the third person" please give proof from the original greek language, if you are able.

 2009/2/22 23:40Profile
Isaiah64
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Joined: 2006/9/27
Posts: 85


 Re:

Hi savannah,

May I recommend that, if possible, you hear the above messages first? They're really worth the listen, regardless of your view. As I've said, they are really balanced. And Leiter presents his case in such a loving, understanding, and unargumentative style which is wonderful considering this is a very controversial topic.

Also, you can read Leiter's chapter on Romans 7 [url=http://www.puritanfellowship.com/2007/11/romans-7-by-charles-leiter.html]here.[/url]

And Tim Conway from Grace Community Church in Texas has some really good messages on sermonaudio.com as well, just look him up on the site and do a search of Romans 7 and you'll find his messages. If you want I can give you the link to those.

Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones and Isaac Watts were some men of God of the reformed persuation who held to this view. Also, I'm told the early Christians believed this for 300 years up until Agustine, who was the first person to teach the man in Romans 7 was a believer. I'm not sure about this but I'll have to investigate further.

 2009/2/23 0:19Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Once a wretch

Quote:
he was speaking in the third person. He was not describing himself. he was not a wretched miserable man trapped in sin at the time He wrote romans. he was giving an example of one that minded the flesh in romans 7 and he gives how to be delivered of that fleshy minded state in romans chapter 8



Unfortunate chapter breaks, the whole of it speaks as an assessment that real life bears out.

Quote:
He is a man living simultaneously on two planes, eagerly longing to live a life in keeping with the higher plane, but sadly aware of the strength of indwelling sin that keeps on pulling him down to the lower plane." (F.F.Bruce)



Precisely. Charles Simeon, I believe summarizes it experientially;


(John Piper speaking)

- Handley Moule captures the essence of Simeon's secret of longevity in this sentence: "'Before honor is humility,' and he had been 'growing downwards' year by year under the stern discipline of difficulty met in the right way, the way of close and adoring communion with God" (Moule, 64). Those two things were the heartbeat of Simeon's inner life: growing downward in humility and growing upward in adoring communion with God.

But the remarkable thing about humiliation and adoration in the heart of Charles Simeon is that they were inseparable. Simeon was utterly unlike most of us today who think that we should get rid once and for all of feelings of vileness and unworthiness as soon as we can. For him, adoration only grew in the freshly plowed soil of humiliation for sin. So he actually labored to know his true sinfulness and his remaining corruption as a Christian.

[i]I have continually had such a sense of my sinfulness as would sink me into utter despair, if I had not an assured view of the sufficiency and willingness of Christ to save me to the uttermost. And at the same time I had such a sense of my acceptance through Christ as would overset my little bark, if I had not ballast at the bottom sufficient to sink a vessel of no ordinary size. (Moule 134f.)[/i]

He never lost sight of the need for the heavy ballast of his own humiliation. After he had been a Christian forty years he wrote,

[i]With this sweet hope of ultimate acceptance with God, I have always enjoyed much cheerfulness before men; but I have at the same time laboured incessantly to cultivate the deepest humiliation before God. I have never thought that the circumstance of God's having forgiven me was any reason why I should forgive myself; on the contrary, I have always judged it better to loathe myself the more, in proportion as I was assured that God was pacified towards me (Ezekiel 16:63). . . . There are but two objects that I have ever desired for these forty years to behold; the one is my own vileness; and the other is, the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ: and I have always thought that they should be viewed together; just as Aaron confessed all the sins of all Israel whilst he put them on the head of the scapegoat. The disease did not keep him from applying to the remedy, nor did the remedy keep him from feeling the disease. By this I seek to be, not only humbled and thankful, but humbled in thankfulness, before my God and Saviour continually. (Carus, 518f.)[/i]

If Simeon is right, vast portions of contemporary Christianity are wrong. And I can't help wondering whether one of the reasons we are emotionally capsized so easily today - so vulnerable to winds of criticism or opposition - is that in the name of forgiveness and grace, we have thrown the ballast overboard.

Simeon's boat drew a lot of water. But it was steady and on course and the mastheads were higher and the sails bigger and more full of the Spirit than most people's today who talk continuously about self-esteem.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=25079&forum=34]Spurgeon - Mueller - An Important Series ~ Piper's Biographies[/url]



David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, John ... It is the prevailing mindset and recognition throughout scripture ... Luk 18:10-14


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Mike Balog

 2009/2/23 9:20Profile
clintstone
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Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

paul , in romans chapter 7 was speaking of a carnal christians exsperience. He , paul was not in this exsperience at the time he wrote this book . he was not refering to his present condition , but the condition of a carnal flesh minded christian . it is so simple to look at the whole big picture of scripture to see as an eagle sees from way up high and zoom in with the eyes of an eagle and see the little morsels to eat . meaning seeing the details of scripture by getting a big view ,of the big picture of pauls life and understanding His Holiness and blameless life before man and God.Paul was a blameless and Holy man or He was an extravagant boastful liar. I nowhere said or implied paul to be unregenerant nor the example in pauls teaching in romans ch.7 to be unregenerant either. the texts of romans chapters 5,6,7,8 all combined and followed through prove themselves , that paul is not speaking of Himself as the being carnal christian in a wretched miserable estate that the example of romans 7.


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Clint Demoret

 2009/2/24 23:16Profile





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