| Re: |
I wrote this because I am grieved that pursuit of preeminence on the part of men by unduly usurping Christ's authority, flattery, bowing to men...flattery, false discipline, lording over, has crippled the saints who should not be suppressed.
I fear GOD not men. HE above should be honored...but I honor HIM by responding to HIS love as far as I have been changed...through where HE has appointed me to share in HIS sufferings and share in the power of HIS resurrection. HE desires Christ in me The HOPE of glory, to preeminent in all that I am (not to other men who must worship GOD, and not me) when I honor the LORD, worship the LORD, serve the LORD men should glorify GOD not me...they should be thinking upon Christ and all that HE can do not "boy this guy is pious...why doesn't GOD love me as much"
Natural men can't understand the things of GOD. (no one know the mind of the man but himself...likewise no one knows GOD but The Spirit) It is the "COMFORTER who will teach us all things concerning Christ" I do not see any conflict with the verses you shared...Jesus supped with the FATHER in Timothy...Christ in Timothy the HOPE of Glory, as treasure in an earthen jar was poured out where HE saw fit. The only teacher we can have is GOD. HE is the ONLY door the only shepherd, we hear HIS voice...HE is still alive...HE is still reigning...HE is still teaching. I have never read the word "Reverend, father, even pastor in the WORD" I think that their were teachers, elders, bishops, prophets, and evangelists ++many more that operated as one body...still do...but we see a counterfeit system now imposed on most people who are ignorant of each members obligation to bring that which the body needs.
I am so grieved I am sick brother, I feel like our hands from sea to shining sea, and beyond are tied up by this. Brothers that can teach and know Jesus are pushed onto pedestals that harm them. Many of the beloved are vexed like Lot, those who with courage step up to speak the truth in love are treated like trouble makers. Wickedness is hidden in the climb to preeminence leaving churches filled with "domesticated saints" that mirrors the false "perpetual adolescence" that is so common...you are a child or an adult...you are natural or spiritual. Christ show us what to do, sheep among wolves let the laying down of our lives be according to your will, and purpose.
Etomolgy is no big secret nico means "conquer" it is used in many words...some have in stealth given mis-information by implying it is "unclear or unknown" LOOK WHAT IT DOES! I know why Jesus hates it...so do I...I have struggled for years not to hate those that wield this tool of the enemy.
I mean we are to be one...as HE is one...and there are "modern conventions" that are designed to keep us off balance. There are no leaders but Christ (HE does work in our midst thru foolish things, weak things...demonstrating HIS presence in vessels who are overcome then submit to HIS love and obey HIS desire to serve in a pleasing way (without self interest)
I don't know how to share what YOU are showing me, I can't bear being helpless to make a difference, and respond to resistance by what seem like hidden motives I can't expose. HELP LORD.
| 2009/2/1 2:34||Profile|
| Re: |
RobertW. Etomolgy is no big secret nico means "conquer" it is used in many words...some have in stealth given mis-information by implying it is "unclear or unknown" LOOK WHAT IT DOES! I know why Jesus hates it...so do I...I have struggled for years not to hate those that wield this tool of the enemy.
Although I am also sympathetic to the fact that there needs to be a change in the way the local church is governed, I am also aware of how Nicolatians breaks down and the argument is too uncertain to standardize. We discussed this at length in the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=26547&forum=40&434]Just who is responsible for this state of affairs? [/url] thread. I think you will find it useful in its entirety.
Robert Wurtz II
| 2009/2/1 6:45||Profile|
| Nothing Perfect -- Here|
Indeed, human involvement in spiritual institutions inevitably seems to result in sin or defect to the institution. But such is the nature of corporeal life. That in no way negates that God has established pastors-teachers to watch over the doctrine of His institutions and to take the forefront in teaching His flocks.
Feed my sheep, but only if you love Me!
| 2009/2/1 8:40||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Careful|
I fear GOD not men.
Natural men can't understand the things of GOD. (no one know the mind of the man but himself...likewise no one knows GOD but The Spirit) It is the "COMFORTER who will teach us all things concerning Christ" I do not see any conflict with the verses you shared...Jesus supped with the FATHER in Timothy...Christ in Timothy the HOPE of Glory, as treasure in an earthen jar was poured out where HE saw fit.
[i]The only teacher we can have is GOD.[/i]
HE is the ONLY door the only shepherd, we hear HIS voice...HE is still alive...HE is still reigning...HE is still teaching. I have never read the word "Reverend, father, even pastor in the WORD" I think that their were teachers, elders, bishops, prophets, and evangelists ++many more that operated as one body...still do...but we see a counterfeit system now imposed on most people who are ignorant of each members obligation to bring that which the body needs.
Brother, I am just as sympathetic and at times outraged at these things as you and others. The acronym WOF alone enough to give a great rise to indignation for the sheer manipulation and twisting, contorting of the scriptures, the bleating of the sheep, the psychological abuse ... Our so called modern day "Prophets" being another, [i]they[/i] have set themselves up as the oracles of the Lord, abuse and have actually created their own vocabulary derived from the scriptures to further their vain imaginations and dare to speak these things in Gods stead as God speaking. Nicolations? Draw off the comparisons of these to the article you linked, it's all there.
My only concern and to belabor the point is that of an [i]exchange[/i] on the one hand and where things run together on the other. The two isolated bits from your reply above leave an impression and one that others here might also be concerned with, is what can lead to an island alone mindset and if not careful, pride, loss of a grasp of what constitutes true humility and that word that can strike us sideways - submission to authority.
Do take Robert up on his mention there, it is a very good thread and last I checked was still cordial and very edifying,
Fearing God and not man is plain enough but when it comes to the Brethren who are of your own makeup and ... matter, [i]in spirit and in truth[/i], where a sense of 'authority' is a given, not as a title, it is easy, I want to say 'natural' to give preference one to another. It may be a 'teacher' but it also may be the simplicity of a child - There have been 14 year olds on this site that have shut my mouth and caused me to consider - It is in moments like that where I am indeed being taught just as well.
Who has authority? Anyone with less pride than myself, with more honesty than I have yet to achieve, whose heart, demeanor, proclivities, character, disposition is more knit to the Lord and exemplifies Him, who is Christlike.
Speaking in generalities, the concern again is in flipping this all over and giving rise to a "Me and God" against the world, including our own kind. We would have no need of Paul or the apostles even of the scriptures since they do decidedly teach everything that we need to learn. We could become monk's and live in the desert if this was taken to it's extreme, God being our only teacher. The facts are that the Lord uses each of us to teach each other, even what you are forwarding here is a 'teaching' of sorts, leaning on the error side of things and drawing off of it, exposing it if you will.
Another consideration ... Towards the end of that article;
[i]Then defame and slander their character by adding the charge of anger because those who are passionate about the Word always express emotion sooner or later out of frustration at not being heard so you will always be able to point to some tangible public display of emotion. Oh, never mind that Titus 3 actually defines a factious man as being the one who is introducing destructive and error laden doctrines and who is dividing the fellowship of the church based on improper motives because almost no one is discerning enough in the church to look up the passage on their own, much less properly interpret it in context (hmm, the irony is that while you are falsely accusing the righteous man of being factious Titus 3 actually defines the real factious man as being you). The charge of factiousness itself is sufficient to win the day.
Then, out the door the trouble-making Bible-quoting discerners will go. Most will leave of their own accord anyway, having had enough of their characters being maligned. The few that stick around can easily be sent through a pseudo-church discipline meeting and they too will soon be gone. And since they have nothing they can repent from, they will never return to plague your fellowship again. In fact, this form of ungodly "discipline" might best be characterized by the term "shunning" because its sole goal is to irrevocably destroy fellowship. However, you must never use that term in public because it might draw attention to fact that what you are doing to these innocent individuals really is shunning which is strictly an illegitimate act; we are nowhere called to destroy fellowships but to restore them.[/i]
The way the author of this is playing devils advocate and speaking in a third person sort of way makes this a bit ... tortured if not sarcastic in that manner he is using. It's not an accusation per se but it makes things difficult to unravel. Convoluted. It is to shove all the emphasis on to one side and make even the ones 'quoting bible verses' the righteous ones when they are very often the ones in rebellion, contradicting the very statement made earlier, [i]... dividing the fellowship of the church based on improper motives[/i].
My reason for drawing attention to this is for the same things that even 'we', those of us here under the burden of moderating have met time and again, namely misappropriation. Where we attempt best as we can to be patient and long-suffering, as 'unbiased' as we can (a very, very difficult thing at times), allow many things to go on with the hope of considering and again reconsidering -[i]time[/i] - That great interval of space where things sink down into our fabric and alter us all - All these things and yet we must still keep some order around here and that is where a mindset that is already decided and not to misappropriate it to yourself, is one that will often rise up and thwart these efforts - It is where that word 'shunning' made and always makes me cringe. We have often had no other recourse than to remove some that were overbearing in conduct, more often that not the case and generally speaking, less often over dangerous heresy's and the like. But the accusations have come, threatenings and a whole host of things unprintable even here, things that would amaze and alarm ... but I must tell you that not a one has been 'shunned' even if removed - For a setting such as this the limitations are to what is expressed but it can never paint the whole picture and so even those things leveled or charged must also be taken with an understanding and often enough are cause to reflect even further - Listening to your 'critics' even in their outbursts, the misunderstandings and misappropriations of intent and motive on [i]both[/i] sides, where we have erred and failed ...
Again, it is more teaching and learning.
If I could go back to the 'prophetic' bunch again and maybe give a stark example of the same things you are distressed about, just as I often am - Remember Todd Bentley? There was no small controversy surrounding this whole thing and page upon page was expressed here during this whole upheaval, this whole supposed 'revival', his antics and deploring conduct, the imaginations run amok ... When it all came crashing down and to our credit and in no way boasting, it was largely met with silence. The majority of us grieved and some of us even concerned greatly even for the man, his family, his separation from his wife ...
I still on occasion find myself praying for him and am just as impressed by one simple factor. His silence. It is impossible to read as much into it as out of it but where I have a great problem even still is what became of these so called (many of them) 'apostles' or 'apostolic' ministries that they have appointed themselves as. These same men who came out and put there little stamp of approval, their 'anointing' on Todd and on the whole 'revival' ended up taking this fallacious higher ground and attempted, after the fact, to defend themselves, distance themselves from it all. Whole statements and letters on their 'positions', their best efforts at sincerity and concern for him being washed out with their inability to see just how much their own lack of discernment, their penchant for chucking scripture in favor of "What God is doing" or at best wrenching it all out of context was the very problem in the first place. There where those who wrote long, defending articles in support when it was all so ... exciting and entertaining that fell off a cliff when it blew up. It was and is frankly very pathetic and marries right into these things under discussion - The overt concern was not for the Lords testimony, but self preservation. None of them came completely clean nor admitted frankly, instead gave a wink and a nod to it, lessening and distancing themselves from any responsibility, if not involvement.
What is more alarming? From what I last observed of it all, these same men were to be the ones to restore him? It is ghastly, compounding the error ... Might great prayer is that the Lord would thwart and keep them far, far away from him. I have far more sympathy and hope for Todd Bentley than these self appointed, self 'anointed' - wind bags (Jud 1:12) and I am at once sorry and not so sorry for putting it so crassly.
| 2009/2/1 10:22||Profile|
| Re: |
I do not think any pastor need feel guilty for disciplining a sinning brother (privately counseling him, then counseling him with witnesses, and finally, having the church vote together to remove the still sinning brother from ordinary fellowship).
However, too numerous to recount are the times I have witnessed people tossed out of the church with no thought given to how to encourage them to repent, or, more often, with no genuine charge of actual sin. In those instances, the charge is always "factiousness" for having disagreed about little things (wrong location for a church conference, which construction company to use, etc). Faction is supposed to be a serious charge of dividing the church away from Christ on the basis of false doctrine. Now-a-days some use it to get rid of those who disagree with leadership over non-doctrinal preferences. Very sad.
Worse, shunning, the cutting off of all relationships, has replaced "discipline." When the church broke fellowship with an unrepentant sinner, they were supposed to treat him like any other sinner on the street, kindly, and always encouraging him to repent, displaying to him the love of Christ. Shunning simply stops all communication cold, no witnessing, no encouraging, no relationship.
If a pastor must discipline an unrepentant sinner, he has no guilt. If a pastor shuns anyone, the guilt is his.
| 2009/2/1 14:45||Profile|
| Re: Interesting link|
I guess this has been discussed.
I just wish that we could fix it by acknowledging it...but it grip is deep.
for sure it is sin. (as for the Ester issue I think you shared enough for me to receive it...thanks for the background info)
I am humbled you'd go to such lengths to consider this with me, thanks brother.
I am glad you see what I am seeing, but there is no Biblical role for "Pastor" to discipline but the church to do this.
| 2009/2/1 19:40||Profile|
| Re: The Council of Hell|
A.D.200 The Council of Hell
By George Davis
"We need a new plan!" Satan cried, fire darting from his flashing eyes. "Two hundred years we've waged this war, only to be worse off than before. What does the problem seem to be? We smite one, they rise up three? We must tailor-make a plan suited to the weakness of man."
"Ah yes! If I can't destroy it I will pervert it! I will seduce this family God loves so dear!" Satan scoffed, while grasping his hands in disdain as if he were crushing them in his very palms. "I will plan their compromise. Remember Samson. The battle is as good as won!"
"I will create a counterfeit, a Church to my own liking. We will appeal to man's ambition, his perverted desire to rule. Diotrephes, if you please, had it right after all. I will offer them kingdoms, and entice them with riches; they will usurp the very throne of Christ himself. And all this will be done in the name of God and righteousness. I love it!" Satan shouted, as the hideous groans and sneers of the hordes of hell reverberated through the abyss.
"'The greatest among you shall be a servant.' Ha! I'll make these servants into kings and their servanthood into tyranny. And for my masterstroke, these pagan temples that I have built will be their new home. I see it all so clearly now! They will sit in rows, silent, yes, silent at last. Those who turned my world upside-down will sit silently, in rows, entertained. How I have wished it!
"Ah, what greater pain could I inflict upon the creator, than for him to see his children wrapped in chains, worshiping in my temples, surrounded by my idols and led by my pontiff kings."
"'You shall have no other gods before me.' Ha!" Satan scoffed. "We will see about that! Greater deceptions than these shall I weave. I'll surround them with the trappings of idolatry and then when they are worshiping, in part they'll worship me!"
| 2009/2/2 8:39||Profile|
| Re: |
I guess this has been discussed.
I just wish that we could fix it by acknowledging it...but it grip is deep.
It will be useless to strategize. God will have to remedy the problem as we respond rightly to His instructions. Man gets themselves into trouble- but it takes Divine Intervention to get them out. We just need to be sensitive to do what God reveals. As Ron Bailey said in the Q & A session in Greenock; "I'm not a strategist, Im a foot soldier. I simply have to do as I am told." Truly at this point it is all we [u]can[/u] do. We do not have the required wisdom or the necessary favor with men to fix this problem.
Robert Wurtz II
| 2009/2/2 9:18||Profile|
| Re: |
Quoted from DuolosQuinn: "swordfish7: I am glad you see what I am seeing, but there is no Biblical role for 'Pastor' to discipline but the church to do this."
The abuses? Yes I have seen them.
Pastors? Are they too not a part of the body? Are they not members of the church? Whatever the church is charged to do (i.e. discipline), so too are the pastors charged to do, to model, to lead in by their example, and to teach to the rest of the church so they may do also.
Christ taught the church to do Matthew 18 discipline, and so the pastors are obligated to teach it the church by example and by instruction.
The presence of abusers in the pastorate does not give us warrant to discontinue either the pastorate or Matthew 18 discipline. It does give us warrant to correct the abusers (with discipline if necessary) and to better educate, train, and select our pastors.
| 2009/2/2 10:15||Profile|
| Re: |
The presence of abusers in the pastorate does not give us warrant to discontinue either the pastorate or Matthew 18 discipline
Sure, but the word of God does make a good case against the current Evangelical/Roman Catholic "pastorate" system none the less.
Matthew 23:6-12 YLT
they love also the chief couches in the supper, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
and the salutations in the market-places, and to be called by men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
`And ye -- ye may not be called Rabbi, for one is your director -- the Christ, and all ye are brethren;
and ye may not call [any] your father on the earth, for one is your Father, who is in the heavens,
nor may ye be called directors, for one is your director -- the Christ.
And the greater of you shall be your ministrant,
and whoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled, and whoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Is it then OK if we have our directors and call them "Pastor" or "Reverand" instead of Rabbi? Yeah, some Godly brethren, more Godly then I, may do this innocently but the overall rotten fruit of it is bears testimony to the warnings in the word of God.
| 2009/2/2 10:57|