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DoulosQuinn
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Joined: 2006/7/6
Posts: 131


 The Diotrephes Syndrome & Nicolaitinism

I was curious enough if anyone can bear witness or contradict this with the word. In short I was hoping for in depth examination.

I know many people are very loyal to other men they have perceived to have had "divine right" not in a papal sense...but like king David or something. But John the baptist was greater then David...and those born of the Spirit are greater then him so I guess that point is moot. Still it is very hard for some to separate their loyalties if they have "bowed the knee" to GOD and then also to a man, because it would require acknowledgment that their submission to GOD has been put on the same level as with man, rather submitting in love in the fear of GOD alone, like Israel when Zephaniah reproved them saying "Those who worship and swear oaths by the LORD, But who also swear by Milcom;" Zephaniah 1:5 (milcom means leader or ruler).

I think the doctrine of the NICOLATIN'S has infected most in the world who claim The Name Jesus Christ. (that amounts to blasphemy, because Jesus hates it)

Nico (to conquer) Laitin (the body of the church)

I short, many people define a difference between worshiping GOD in Spirit and in Truth...and "helping HIM out professionally" which starts to position some to assume they are something when apart from Christ they are nothing....THE GOAL in Christ (who is no respecter of men is to be in true unity in the bond of peace...loving others as your self, while honoring GODs love for them above your own)

Truth is if you are in Christ, and HE is in you then HE is the one producing the fruit. HE is the only good shepherd...(we have no need for man to teach us) (call no man father...or papa 'whatever')

True 'Ministry' is onto The LORD...to be in conflict with ones self...and to obey GOD The FATHER and learn from it like Jesus did...READ HEBREW 5:8"

I also was reading an article called "The Diotrephes Syndrome" ...here is the link http://www.thefaithfulword.org/diotrephes.html
it relates to the WORD revelation in 3 John 1:9-11 which says

"I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church. Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God."

It was a very sobering article that grieved me to think that the church is being choked from within.[url=http://www.thefaithfulword.org/diotrephes.html]Faithfulword[/url]

 2009/1/31 16:53Profile
DoulosQuinn
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Joined: 2006/7/6
Posts: 131


 Re: The Diotrephes Syndrome & Nicolaitinism

Please READ the link before you reply...it is what stirred me to discuss this.

 2009/1/31 17:12Profile
ReverendRich
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Joined: 2009/1/31
Posts: 2


 Re: The Diotrephes Syndrome & Nicolaitinism

I love to read the discussions on this site but I never feel as compelled to comment as I do now.

You are in rebellion to church authority, men have always been given the role to serve as lights for Christ, some as apostles, prophets, teachers.
Remember it was the doctrine of the apostles they studied in Acts!

Christ commanded that you subject yourself under those who guard your soul in such a way their job is pleasing rather then a burden.

These days are different then first century life, and thus call for more modern conventions in the way of leadership methods, and order in the church.

Would there be great meeting places, chapels, Cathedrals without orderly leadership? Would not Jesus design the idea of fortresses of refuge for HIS people in these dark days? Should there not be a way to set watchmen over to protect the sheep?

I dare say your ideas are dangerous and undermine the authority of the church.

 2009/1/31 18:44Profile
swordfish7
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Joined: 2009/1/31
Posts: 6


 The Diotrephes Syndrome

Hey there DoulosQuinn! I read the article you linked to and found it spot on! It saddens me to think that men acted in this manner at the very inception of the church and that they still act that way now. Such "leadership" is so opposite the loving servanthood that Christ modeled and desired for His church.

I am not sure why ReverendRich was so upset about your post. That reaction caught me offguard. Maybe I am missing what you are trying to say, but I think you are just saying that leadership is supposed to be servanthood instead of dictatorship. Am I wrong?

 2009/1/31 20:35Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: The Diotrephes Syndrome

Quote:
Nico (to conquer) Laitin (the body of the church)



We have discussed this before. We simply cannot say with certainty that this is in fact the meaning of this word.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/31 20:58Profile
ReverendRich
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Joined: 2009/1/31
Posts: 2


 Re: The Diotrephes Syndrome

Heresy comes from the word to divide...this guys twisting of the word is intending to cause discord between the people and those chosen by God to lead them.

Can one of the moderators lock this dangerous thread
up?

Someone I have seen as the most reasonable and like minded, crsschk would you cut this post, or at least expose it?

 2009/1/31 21:46Profile









 Re:

I thank God for this thread. The evil spirit of roman catholicism is alive and well in modern evangelical circles. The Church is not a corporate pyramid with the "office" of "pastor" on top. The elders are to serve the church, among the brethren, not to be over them. There are only two passages from the KJV translation that could be used to even argue the modern clergy-laity system.

How men love long robes and authoritive titles. We need to complete the reformation and get back to the New Testament.

-Jim

 2009/1/31 21:57









 Re:

Quote:
Christ commanded that you subject yourself under those who guard your soul in such a way their job is pleasing rather then a burden.



I want to add to my last post, in all humility, that this is quite a stretch of the word of God.

-Jim

 2009/1/31 21:59
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: The Diotrephes Syndrome & Nicolaitinism

[i] The elders therefore among you I exhort, who am a fellow–elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, who am also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Tend the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight, not of constraint, but willingly, according unto God; nor yet for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; neither as lording it over the charge allotted to you, but making yourselves ensamples to the flock.[/i] 1Pe 5:1-3 (RV)


[b]1Pe 5:1-4 -[/b]
Here we may observe,

I. The persons to whom this exhortation is given - to the presbyters, pastors, and spiritual guides of the church, elders by office, rather than by age, ministers of those churches to whom he wrote this epistle.

II. The person who gives this exhortation - the apostle Peter: [i]I exhort[/i]; and, to give force to this exhortation, he tells them he was their brother-presbyter or fellow-elder, and so puts nothing upon them but what he was ready to perform himself. He was also [i]a witness of the sufferings of Christ[/i], being with him in the garden, attending him to the palace of the high-priest, and very likely being a spectator of his suffering upon the cross, at a distance among the crowd, Act_3:15. He adds that he was also [i]a partaker of the glory[/i] that was in some degree revealed at the transfiguration (Mat_17:1-3), and shall be completely enjoyed at the second coming of Jesus Christ. Learn, 1. Those whose office it is to teach others ought carefully to study their own duty, as well as teach the people theirs. 2. How different the spirit and behaviour of Peter were from that of his pretended successors! He does not command and domineer, but exhort. He does not claim sovereignty over all pastors and churches, nor style himself [i]prince of the apostles, vicar of Christ[/i], or [i]head of the church[/i], but values himself upon being an [i]elder[/i]. All the apostles were elders, though every elder was not an apostle. 3. It was the peculiar honour of Peter, and a few more, to be the witnesses of Christ's sufferings; but it is the privilege of all true Christians to be partakers of the glory that shall be revealed.

III. The pastor's duty described, and the manner in which that duty ought to be performed. The pastoral duty is three-fold: -

1. [i]To feed the flock[/i], by preaching to them the sincere word of God, and ruling them according to such directions and discipline as the word of God prescribes, both which are implied in this expression, [i]Feed the flock[/i].

2. The pastors of the church must [i]take the oversight thereof[/i]. The elders are exhorted to do the office of bishops (as the word signifies), by personal care and vigilance over all the flock committed to their charge.

3. They must be [i]examples to the flock[/i], and practise the holiness, self-denial, mortification, and all other Christian duties, which they preach and recommend to their people. These duties must be performed, [i]not by constraint[/i], not because you must do them, not from compulsion of the civil power, or the constraint of fear or shame, but from a willing mind that takes pleasure in the work: [i]not for filthy lucre[/i], or any emoluments and profits attending the place where you reside, or any perquisite belonging to the office, [i]but of a ready mind[/i], regarding the flock more than the fleece, sincerely and cheerfully endeavouring to serve the church of God; [i]neither as being lords over God's heritage[/i], tyrannizing over them by compulsion and coercive force, or imposing unscriptural and human inventions upon them instead of necessary duty, Mat_20:25, Mat_20:26; 2Co_1:24. Learn, (1.) The eminent dignity of the church of God, and all the true members of it. These poor, dispersed, suffering Christians were the flock of God. The rest of the world is a brutal herd. These are an orderly flock, redeemed to God by the great Shepherd, living in holy love and communion one with another, [i]according to the will of God[/i]. They are also dignified with the title of God's [i]heritage[/i] or [i]clergy[/i], his peculiar lot, chosen out of the common multitude for his own people, to enjoy his special favour and to do him special service. The word is never restricted in the New Testament to the ministers of religion. (2.) The pastors of the church ought to consider their people as [i]the flock of God, as God's heritage[/i], and treat them accordingly. They are not theirs, to be lorded over at pleasure; but they are God's people, and should be treated with love, meekness, and tenderness, for the sake of him to whom they belong. (3.) Those ministers who are either driven to the work by necessity or drawn to it by filthy lucre can never perform their duty as they ought, because they do not do it willingly, and with a ready mind. (4.) The best way a minister can take to engage the respect of a people is to discharge his own duty among them in the best manner that he can, and to be a constant example to them of all that is good.

IV. In opposition to that filthy lucre which many propose to themselves as their principal motive in undertaking and discharging the pastoral office, the apostle sets before them the crown of glory designed by the great shepherd, Jesus Christ, for all his faithful ministers. Learn, 1. Jesus Christ [i]is the chief shepherd[/i] of the whole flock and heritage of God. He bought them, and rules them; he defends and saves them for ever. He is also the chief shepherd over all inferior shepherds; they derive their authority from him, act in his name, and are accountable to him at last. 2. This chief shepherd will appear, to judge all ministers and under-shepherds, to call them to account, whether they have faithfully discharged their duty both publicly and privately according to the foregoing directions. 3. Those that are found to have done their duty shall have what is infinitely better than temporal gain; they shall receive from the grand shepherd a high degree of everlasting glory, [i]a crown of glory that fadeth not away.[/i]

Matthew Henry
([i]Italics extant[/i])


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Mike Balog

 2009/1/31 23:08Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: The Diotrephes Syndrome & Nicolaitinism

Read the article linked earlier. It certainly is apparent enough that there are those who disregard these things sadly.

"[i]Ambition

It is unclear whether Diotrephes was the formal elder (overseer/pastor) of the church or whether he simply desired to be especially prominent. In reality, this is irrelevant because it is equally true of pastors or laymen that they can become "ambitious for the place of first distinction." Ambitious for preeminence in the church is entirely different than being desirous to do the work of shepherding/pastoring. Ambition for prestige and control is what leads to "lording it over the flock" (1 Peter 5:3), that is, to become the monarch of the flock and the object of adoration, and it might be added, some small amount of intimidating influence. Contrast that with being desirous to do the work of pastor, which is to dedicate oneself to service, to study, to counseling, and to openly debating and refuting doctrinal errors."[/i]

Quote:
Truth is if you are in Christ, and HE is in you then HE is the one producing the fruit. HE is the only good shepherd...(we have no need for man to teach us) (call no man father...or papa 'whatever')



This is unfortunately a great misnomer, not Christ but that we have no need of being instructed.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

1Co 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

etc.


The derivatives of this verse;

[i]But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.[/i] 1Jn 2:27

Has the preface of [i]but[/i], just that which was before it;

[i]These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.[/i] (1Jn 2:26)


[b]Ye need not that any man teach you[/b] - The Gnostics, who pretended to the highest illumination, could bring no proof that they were divinely taught, nor had they any thing in their teaching worthy the acceptance of the meanest Christian; therefore they had no need of that, nor of any other teaching but that which the same anointing teacheth, the same Spirit from whom they had already received the light of the glory of God, in the face of Jesus Christ. Whatever that taught, they needed; and whatever those taught whose teaching was according to this Spirit, they needed. St. John does not say that those who had once received the teaching of the Divine Spirit had no farther need of the ministry of the Gospel; no, but he says they had no need of such teaching as their false teachers proposed to them; nor of any other teaching that was different from that anointing, i.e. the teaching of the Spirit of God. No man, howsoever holy, wise, or pure, can ever be in such a state as to have no need of the Gospel ministry: they who think so give the highest proof that they have never yet learned of Christ or his Spirit.

Adam Clarke


I do not know that there is any reason for one abandonment to another. That there is both the [i]Nicolation error[/i] as well as those who took what the Lord overemphasized to Peter, to heart;

[i]And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.[/i]

Better clarify that ... Scripture needs to be taught and instructed, just a search on [i]teachers[/i] alone, as 'gift's', as warning of the more severe accountability, of [i]false[/i] teachers presupposing true. As systems and abuses and hierarchies, manipulating, controlling ... all those things derided and hated by the Lord, all are true and ongoing but that doesn't necessitate that due to this the original and right intention is done away with.

I fail to see why any of this should be a matter of contention.


[i]Edit[/i]: This is very timely as well;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=22071&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]MUST READ: Visible Churches Warned by J.C. Ryle[/url]


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Mike Balog

 2009/1/31 23:58Profile





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