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Buck Yates

Hi wayneman…

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Christopher

thank you for all of your responses, thanks for quotes for the church fathers too.

My intent for posting the quotes and participate here is not to flame up another cal vs arm discussion, the original poster asked a question and i tried to give him answers and some of my very little wisdom concerning seeking answers and some of the dangers i my self have encountered. I think i even pointed out if he wanted to read good writings that hold the opposite view. Some that i have been blessed by are Edwards, Spurgeon, Withfield ect.

But also id like to mention there are difference between calvinist and calvinist, see i have been very blessed by both Matthew Henry and J.C Ryles commentary's on scripture, and as far as i can understand their belifs would be placed under reformed and calvinist. And the very interesting thing and the thing i believe to be one of the reason God so has horned them with the light they had and that is seen in their writings is when they come to a very "arminian" passage of scripture they dont explain it away but are very true to what is written, unlike many others they are faithful to scripture. I read in ryles commentary some things that would make some call him a blasphemer since he has inserted some things that i think is very close to a believer losing his salvation, in passages that speak about decipleship and the cost of following Christ and the consequence of not taking it serius, and i have found the same in Matthew Henrys commentary. So it is not so much that we hold fast to one doctrine and we will hold it so no one could even bend it out from our cold dead hands.

Either we say i dont know how it fits together as of yet, and both Ryle and Henry i think had this humility to treat scripture with sincerity fear and honesty.

Indeed this goes both ways since many arminians do the very same thing. But i hope we can all accept that no doctrine or system is perfect and can fully explain all mysteries in scripture.

And arminians have just as many bible verses and passages that are difficult for them to explain that calvinistic have. In this i find Henry and Ryle examples to follow in how they honestly treated scripture in so much they could insert something in their commentary upon the Holy Scriptures that went against the "rules" of the doctrine they held.

To the original posters question, i here post some more quotes from the early church on this topic, and i refer to my first posts warnings once again.


Let us therefore repent with the whole heart, so that none of us perish by the way.

second clement c.150


if you do not guard yourself againt anger you and your house will lose all hope of salvation

Hermas c.150


I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation, andhave denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death - you will by no means be saved

Justin Martyr c.160


Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.

Irenaeus c.180


The world returned to sin...and so it is destined to fire. So is the man who after baptism renews his sins.

Tertullian c.197


Being a beliving man, if you seek to live as the gentiles do, the joys of the world remove you from the grace of Christ

Commodianus c.240




these are just a few, these are from Bercots dictionary of early christian beliefs.

It is a must have in the christian library and you can find it for less then 20 dollars. In it you will find quotes and the early church fathers writings on nearly every subject that pertains to christianity. It is not scripture but a very interesting book that will show us what the first generations of christians believed, Christians that spoke greek, read scripture in greek and lived in the same time period as Christ.

No doubt a very challenging and interesting book to glean from. But without the spirit showing us from scripture it is worth nothing i say again.

God bless

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CHRISTIAN

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Lisa

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TJ

Being stripped of their context it is difficult to judge the original usage of these quotes. Most appealed to me as warnings against apostasy, which is the failure to "make one's calling and election sure."

For instance,

"The world returned to sin...and so it is destined to fire. So is the man who after baptism renews his sins."

I agree, a man who goes entirely back to the world after baptism should expect damnation for trusting in his baptism, rather than Christ for his salvation. He was never saved.

"Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons."

This is patent contradiction to Hebrews 12:6-8, "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." Clearly, if you do not receive and endure God's corrective disciplines, than you WERE NEVER a son. You are yet a bastard son of the devil, and no son of God.

"If you do not guard yourself against anger you and your house will lose all hope of salvation."

Am I to believe that my family's salvation now relies on my temper, rather than on God's covenant with them as individuals in Christ!! But we could take it another way, to say that if we continue on in rage then we shall lose hope that we ever experiences regeneration and sanctification which belong to every person born again.


Let's remember that the "fathers" were basing their ideas off of scripture just like us, and we have more of it than most of them did. Also, we know the canon, and they pulled from mixed sources.

i agree quoting can take something completley out of context, the best thing is to read the early church writings for one self to get a a view of the whole content and so on. Purpose and to whom it is written and so on.

And again it is possible to take quotes out as previus posters have mentioned and make it into something extreme or cult.

I have seen the watchtower quote early church fathers, seen catholics quote them to show their heretical doctrines to be the "true" ones, an example is i saw a catholic take a quote and make it so that our salvation hangs on the obedience to the pope and the church.

So it is a danger in doing so, i just posted short quotes that deal somwhat with the issue at hand.

But when one read the early church fathers i think many of them believed it was possible to know Christ in truth and go back.

Right or wrong their writing is not scripture, but from many of them that is what i get when reading them.

But I have been wrong once or twice before :-)

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CHRISTIAN

Lysa,

Judas was never a believer. He was the son of perdition destined to betray the Christ as prophesied in the Old Testament. Jesus said "yet one of your is a devil..." (John 6:70)

And, yes, it is a blasphemous idea to say that, although Christ said it was the Father's will that he lose [b]none[/b] of those given to Him by the Father, He actually failed in this task.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

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Taylor Otwell

Open for life thank you for those powerful insights. Hmmm i agree it is just their thoughts and not scripture and it looks from what i see that they believed you could lose salvation. Taylor i agree completely with what your saying about judas, he was a devil the wholetime, he was a goat with the sheep.