| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | | Quote:
ChrisJD wrote:
I am amazed at the kind of questions that can be asked here.
Is this some sort of game??
It's no game, it's dead serious. Perhaps you didn't notice Luther's quote, he was also quite serious about the matter.
[i]"With reference to the elect we might distinguish between three classes. First, there are those who are satisfied with God's will, as it is, and do not murmur against God, but rather believe that they are elected. They do not want to be damned. Secondly, there are those who submit to God's will and are satisfied with it in their hearts. At least they desire to be satisfied, if God does not wish to save, but reject them. [b]Thirdly, there are those who really are ready to be condemned if God should will this. These are cleansed most of all of their own will and carnal wisdom. And these experience the truth of Canticles 8:6 "Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death."[/b] Such love is always joined with cross and tribulation, for without it the soul becomes lax, and does not seek after God, nor thirst after God, who is the fountain of life."[/i]-Martin Luther.
Old Joe |
|  2009/1/25 12:01 | |
| | Re: | | Quote:
fuehrerbe21 wrote:
...would you be willing to serve God and submit to His authority even if you knew you were to be damned to hell?
There are two ways to answer this question.
1) If it was assured that I was going to hell, it would not be possible for me to serve God in any respect with an unregenerate heart. Without a regenerated heart, it is not possible for me to be even willing to serve Him as He desires. I could put forth visible outward service, but there could be no trust of God. Even the best offerings I could put forth would only be service to self. In that condition though I could and would submit to his authority as a natural law-abiding citizen, submit to the government, pay my taxes, stop at red lights, give to the poor, go to church and even call on His name. Millions on the hellbound road do this each day, most even know they are hellbound and continue in it.
2) If I am actually [i]willing[/i] to serve God that must include trust, and can only come with a regenerated heart. With a regenerated heart I can trust Him in [i]wherever[/i] He may send me, and in whatever he may do with me up to and including hell, were it possible. For were it the will of God to send me there, I know there would be a higher purpose attached to it that I could not see at the time, and in that I trust Him entirely.
Have any of you ever prayed in this manner?
"Lord, my heart is cold, my testimony is barren, my lamp is dim. Let it grow warmer, more alive and brighter, otherwise please extinguish my profession altogether rather than bring shame on your name."
Old Joe |
| | 2009/1/25 12:31 | |
| | Re: | | Quote:
ChrisJD wrote:
Greetings all,
I am amazed at the kind of questions that can be asked here.
How is it that these things can be asked in a way that it is [b]impossible to know who will be reading it[/b]?
Is this some sort of game??
Can we ask anything we want to people that can not look us in the face and in the eye?
When the Apostle Paul made that amazing declaration in Romans 9:2-3, he, it appears, knowing how astounding his declaration was, prefaced it by saying:
[b][color=000000] I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, [/color][/b]
And yet, did he turn and ask them the same thing?? Did he then ask them if the same was true of them? What?
But, also, was he not writting to people that he knew, or who could know of his love and care for them, or who were also aqauinted with his own faith and love and works?
But he does not ask them such a thing, but NOT EVEN MORE to strangers?
We aught to consider if taking shots in the dark will make us more like a skilled and carefull surgeon, or like a blind swordsman hacking away into the air.
We are not playing a childs game of operation, where the worst penalty for our errors is that a cheap peice of electronics and plastic glows and makes an annoying sound.
We are dealing with flesh and blood, with the hearts and minds and spirits of people made in the image of God.
[size=large]Finally! AMEN!!![/size] |
| | 2009/1/25 13:32 | | ChrisJD
Member
Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA
| | Re: | | Old_Joe,
You said,
"It's no game, it's dead serious."
And yet you continue to speak and to teach others in a multitude [b]of your own words[/b].
_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow
|
| | 2009/1/25 13:52 | Profile | hmmhmm
Member
Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden
| | Re: Interesting question. | | Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
what is disturbing is this reasoning and thinking and questioning is not to be found in the word, scripture says God dont wish anyone to perish, then why would we want to have such thoughts and questionings knowing it is not the Lords will?
Luther may have said something alike, but luthers words are not christs, i think Luther said much that is under the category "words of Christ" and that is very benefitial to read and dwell upon, but this is clearly not when we compare to the Words of Christ in the bible.
So it is not wise to teach such or ask such questions that we know is not God.
We are then very close to create an idol, a God of our imagination that is not real.
May we teach the true God and what he says in scripture.
let us ask and seek wisdom how we can teach the words of Christ with all wisdom.
_________________
CHRISTIAN
|
| | 2009/1/25 14:14 | Profile | hmmhmm
Member
Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden
| | Re: Interesting question. | | NKJ Colossians 2:8 ¶ Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
philosophy, (fribergs)
love of wisdom, pursuit of wisdom; in a negative sense in the NT, of a worldview opposed to that derived from divine revelation human wisdom or understanding
_________________
CHRISTIAN
|
| | 2009/1/25 14:45 | Profile | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: Out of character | | [i]Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?[/i]
Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
This hypothetical question is troubling for a number of reasons. One, that it is hypothetical to begin with. Secondly that it presupposes something that is out of His character by a prepositional "if". Lastly, there is no biblical warrant or equivalent.
I get as much as anyone might the gist of this by way of examples noted already, of being wiling, of a Tozer or Reidhead making mention of preaching in hell itself if that was the outcome of it all. But there is a world of difference between being wiling to obey [i]knowing[/i] the character and righteousness (... do 'right" in the verse above) of God, having a [i]expectation[/i] that that very expectation is fulfilled by His character - In other words ...[i]be (it) far from thee to do after this manner[/i], and, positing something that He would not do.
So the question falls apart and no, I am not ready to be condemned when the Lord came to redeem men from this very thing. It would not happen, it is not His will and never will be. The "if" is without warrant.
Moses, Paul, Abraham, Daniel ... David, I am trying to recall any instance where these men made reference to be ... [i]"accursed" ... "blot me out of Thy book I pray" ... " ... even if He does not deliver us, we will not bow down"[/i]. All of these being [i]wiling[/i] does not lessen their intention, but neither does it do away with their known expectations, that [i]the Judge of all the earth will do right[/i].
Far be it for Him to do otherwise.
_________________
Mike Balog
|
| | 2009/1/25 20:09 | Profile | ccchhhrrriiisss
Member
Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779
| | Re: | | Question: "[i]Are you ready/prepared to be condemned to hell if that were God's will for you[/i]?"
Answer (as HmmHmm pointed out): [color=660000]"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." [/color]
In other words, it is NOT God's will for anyone to perish. Period. This is clear from this verse, John 3:16-17 and pretty much any other verse in the Word of God regarding the Lord's heart for us. Jesus didn't die for a select few...He died because He so loved [i]the world[/i]. Although God may already know who will ultimately choose to believe in Him, it is just downright [u]silly[/u] to even suggest that God might want some people to go to Hell. We have a free will...that distinguishes us from all of creation. We can choose to give our lives to Him. While God might know who is ultimately His (since He sits in Eternity...already knowing past, present and future) -- we still do not know our outcome. I can guarantee that if a person does not believe in Jesus...they were not "chosen," "preordained," "predestined," etc... They are just lost.
I don't know what will happen to my next door neighbor. He may live to be 100. He may die when he is 30. However, I can pretty much guarantee that if he were to stand in front of a train going 65 miles per hour, he will not live to be either 30 or 100. Was he predestined to die in front of a train? Well, he wrote his own destiny using the pen of "free will."
But...in answer to your initial question...
No, it is NEVER God's will for anyone to go to Hell. It is His will that ALL should come to repentance. This is the very essence of the "Gospel" -- the "good news."
:-)
_________________
Christopher
|
| | 2009/1/25 21:27 | Profile | ccchhhrrriiisss
Member
Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779
| | Re: | | Duplicate post.
_________________
Christopher
|
| | 2009/1/25 21:29 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
ChrisJD wrote:
Old_Joe,
You said,
"It's no game, it's dead serious."
And yet you continue to speak and to teach others in a multitude [b]of your own words[/b].
I guess you don't read or hear many sermons then, since they are in the preacher's own words.
Old Joe |
| | 2009/1/25 22:39 | |
|
