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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : False views concerning the church going through the great tribulation!

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Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3433
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

Quote:
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
I think that this assumption on the part of Corrie ten Boom is incorrect. It assumes that people like us (who don't conclude that God will pour out His wrath on His own children) are UNPREPARED or UNWILLING to suffer through persecution or tribulation.


She bases that on the Chinese church and what the Bishop from China said, "We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution, rather than telling them Jesus would come first. Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, how to stand when the tribulation comes, – to stand and not faint."

Chris, do you think that in China they taught a different kind of pre-trib doctrine than what is being taught today in America?


_________________
Lisa

 2009/1/14 12:43Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4582


 Re:

Hi Lysa...

Quote:
She bases that on the Chinese church and what the Bishop from China said, "We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution, rather than telling them Jesus would come first. Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, how to stand when the tribulation comes, – to stand and not faint."

Chris, do you think that in China they taught a different kind of pre-trib doctrine than what is being taught today in America?



I think that the mistake is the lack of differentiation between tribulation and persecution from the period known as the GREAT TRIBULATION. It will be "great" only in the sense that God will be the One dispensing the tribulation (if you know what I mean).

We should ALWAYS be prepared for tribulation, persecution and disaster. If our eyes are fixed upon Jesus...then what have we to fear?

So what should be taught?

We should certainly instruct believers to be PREPARED to endure through various manners of tribulation and persecution. Like you said, Chinese believers have endured terrible tribulation and persecution...as have many believers since the resurrection of Christ. Early believers were literally torn to pieces! They were fed to lions, killed by gladiators, crucified and even burned alive! Jews experienced horrendous persecution at the hands of the Nazis...for which Corrie ten Boom and her family were sentenced to the same fate. Yet this tribulation came at the hands of mere men (inspired by Satan, no doubt). This tribulation, however, was not the direct result of the wrath of God.

That is the key difference in this discussion. People who believe in the "rapture" (again, a terrible choice of word) don't believe that they will escape worldy tribulation. We can be assured that we will be persecuted and that we must endure through it...as overcomers citing Christ's example...as Jesus instructed us in the book of John! However, those who believe in a "rapture" simply see the Bride of Christ as being exempt from the Wrath of God that will be poured upon the entire Earth to kill and test those who are remaining.

I do think that there is a bad misconception about the beliefs of those who lean toward a belief in a "rapture" (or "gathering up") of believers before God pours out His wrath upon the world. While there are groups (like the charismatic prosperity believers) who try to teach that we can avoid hardship on this Earth -- their views in no wise make up the views of the believers who embrace the notion of such a pre-wrath gathering of the saints.

I just wanted to clarify this.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2009/1/14 13:27Profile









 Re:

Quote:
You are exactly correct about how we discipline our children. But we all are in the same house and must watch those who are being disciplined. You don't take your children out of the house to save them from the others being disciplined do you?



The other children would only witness the punishment handed out if it would also teach them a lesson (i.e. not to do it). God's wrath in the Tribulation is not meant to teach anyone anything... it's to lay down the judgement once and for all on those who rejected him. We're not all going to hell so we can witness that, are we? No, there is nothing there for us to learn.

There is a different between "corrective" punishment, and final judgement. I hate to use a term that Hitler used, but it could be said that the Tribulation Period is God's "Final Solution" on those who have rebelled against Him.

Krispy

 2009/1/14 13:33
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1262


 Re:

I greatly appreciate the many replies on this thread. I thank God for the Christ-like spirit expressed in the posts of people’s feelings and opinions. I am also grateful for the posts of the like minded view that has been expressed by Chris, Krispy, psalm1, and others concerning the church not having to go through the great tribulation. Here is a particular quote that I would like to comment on a little further.

Quote:

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:

That is the key difference in this discussion. People who believe in the "rapture" (again, a terrible choice of word) don't believe that they will escape worldy tribulation. We can be assured that we will be persecuted and that we must endure through it...as overcomers citing Christ's example...as Jesus instructed us in the book of John! However, those who believe in a "rapture" simply see the Bride of Christ as being exempt from the Wrath of God that will be poured upon the entire Earth to kill and test those who are remaining.

I do think that there is a bad misconception about the beliefs of those who lean toward a belief in a "rapture" (or "gathering up") of believers before God pours out His wrath upon the world. While there are groups (like the charismatic prosperity believers) who try to teach that we can avoid hardship on this Earth -- their views in no wise make up the views of the believers who embrace the notion of such a pre-wrath gathering of the saints.

I just wanted to clarify this.

:-)



Thank you brother for making this clarity! (although I don't have a problem with using the word rapture just because others have misused it)

There is a difference between tribulations, persecution, and sufferings for Christ than in the great tribulation.

Also notice in: Luke 21:36 (KJV) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

We must not think that we will automatically be the bride of Christ and escape the great tribulation just because we are in the church. The scripture says the bride hath made herself ready and that we must be accounted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass.

There are many other scriptures that exhort us to be ready for the coming of the Lord. There are not a people on the face of this earth who can prepare themselves for the great tribulation. It will be the most horrible time known to man existence. The scripture says that God hath not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation.

This is what I believe from scriptural understanding and also having the spirit of Christ that is wrong about believing or preparing to go through the great tribulation. Jesus does not give us this view, he tells us to watch and be ready in an hour that you think not.

He also told the church of Philadelphia in Revelation 3:10 (KJV) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The view that Jesus wants us to have is of Him and his coming for us so that he can purify us as he is pure. He is the one who keeps us in all the trials of this life but they are not the great tribulation. I am one who believes that believing you will go through the great tribulation can be harmful. I also believe that believing that you will go in the rapture and escape the great tribulation automatically without heeding the words of Jesus is also harmful. The people who died as martyrs at the stake being burned did not prepare themselves to be such. They were filled with God’s spirit and were able to endure. I was reading of one who couldn’t bear the pain and cried out to God and was instantly baptized in the Holy Ghost and he began to praise God in the fire clapping his hands as the bones of his fingers were falling off. Praise God we need to be full of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus even told his disciples that they would be persecuted, killed, and be brought up to be judged for his name sake. He even told them not to prepare what they were going to say because the spirit of the Father would be in them giving them what to say.

Oh brethren! We must be filled with the Holy Ghost and the wisdom of God to be able to go through what ever trial we are face with for our Lord. We must be counted worthy of the Lord in order to escape the great tribulation and to stand before the son of man.

One other note for those who are looking to go through the great tribulation instead of looking to be caught up to be with the Lord at any moment, how are you preparing for this great tribulation. Why don’t you believe, that keeping yourself cleansed from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit knowing that he could come at anytime and you want to be caught up with him in the air so you will forever be with the Lord, will prepare you more than believing that you will go through the great tribulation.

 2009/1/14 14:50Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Matthew 25
1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Note;
they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut

compare with;
Gen 7 16And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

17And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
Compare with;
26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 2009/1/15 1:04Profile









 Re: Revelation series by Zac Poonen

On end time events and doctrine.

The best teaching I have ever heard is right here on sermonindex....Zac Poonen's Revelation series.


I recommend it thoroughly. Listen, and form your own ideas; it is really neat.


I have learned a lot from multiple sessions in this series, and one of the deepest was that REVELATION WAS TO OBEYED!..I never considered that. Also, I was able to reconcile the bowls of wrath....[waters to blood, all green things dead, along with all of the oceans and rivers...[drinking blood...worldwide..], and Jesus's return. I agree with Poonen. We are not appointed to wrath. There will be a time, after Jesus's return, when the strokes of wrath will come, and we won't be here!


The enemies of the Lord will. He has returned, obviously, and yet there are people who cry out, "Hide us from the face of the Lamb!..and His wrath!"..."Let the rocks fall upon us!"


It is clear to me, that the Church will be gathered upon His return, and therefore before this final act of wrathful judgement when a sword comes from His mouth to destroy His enemies.


His return will come after a portion of the tribulation, and before His most terrible acts of Vengeance and punishment. This is biblical, and logical, and this series has helped me immensely to understand .


Again, make your own assessments. we are brothers whatever you decide, but as Poonen brings out, revelation is to be obeyed, and only the fruits of holiness will be gathered unto the Lord.





 2009/1/15 13:38









 Re: False views concerning the church going through the great tribulation!

Quote:
Matthew 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken [b]this generation[/b]? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

Quote:
Matthew 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgement with [b]this generation[/b], and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Quote:
Matthew 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgement with [b]this generation[/b], and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.



In the above quotes Jesus was speaking to the generation that He was referring to, namely the one that He was living in. Is the [b]"this generation"[/b] different than [b]"this generation"[/b] found in Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation?

I am not asking for answers, I know what the answer is. But I am putting it here for minds to come together to allow ourselves to think about what is being said and not pay attention to what we have come to know as "truth".

Sometimes truth can be shocking, especially when it disrupts what we have been taught.

 2009/1/15 20:05
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

quote;
".....and Jesus's return. I agree with Poonen. We are not appointed to wrath. There will be a time, after Jesus's return, when the strokes of wrath will come, and we won't be here!"


Are you aware of a previous post,in this thread,
stating Poonen believes we do go through the trib.?
In fact anyone who disagrees with Mr Poonen is "deceived by satan"

Quote;
Satan has succeeded in lulling multitudes of Christians with a false comfort, so that they will be unprepared for the great tribulation when it does come upon them.
Poonen

 2009/1/15 20:32Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1262


 Re:

Quote:

psalm1 wrote:

Are you aware of a previous post,in this thread,
stating Poonen believes we do go through the trib.?
In fact anyone who disagrees with Mr Poonen is "deceived by satan"

Quote;
Satan has succeeded in lulling multitudes of Christians with a false comfort, so that they will be unprepared for the great tribulation when it does come upon them.
Poonen




Thank you psalm 1 for your observance.

Poonen may have some truth here concerning those who believe that they will be automatically raptured without preparing to meet him but i don't agree completely.

I have tried to state in my posts to those who believe that we must prepare for the great tribulation, where in scripture are we told to prepare for the great tribulation.

It is impossible to be prepared for the great tribulation. I can't find one scripture that tells me that I must prepare for the great tribulation. I do find many scriptures that state I am to prepare for the coming of the Lord and that I am to be faithful unto the lord no matter what trials I am to face.

Lets say you believe that you will go through the great tribulation before the Lord comes to take you home with him. How do you reconcile this with watching and waiting for in an hour you think not your Lord does come.

In other words how can you be looking for him to come back for you at any moment with your heart set on Him wanting so much to meet Him in holiness and purity of heart if you believe that you will have to go through the great tribulation before he comes back for you.

The bible says that if we suffer with him we shall reign with him. The sufferings of this life are not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in Him on that day.

What ever tribulations we have to go through in this life will be worth it just to see and be with him in glory.

Let us watch and prepare are hearts to meet Him at any moment and not even think that there must be the great tribulation for us to go through before he comes back for his bride. No, no, no let's prepare ourselves to be His bride by believing at any moment He could he could descend from heaven with a shout...praise be to the mighty God.

 2009/1/15 21:46Profile
rreighe
Member



Joined: 2008/12/23
Posts: 124


 Re:

Quote:

Quote;
Satan has succeeded in lulling multitudes of Christians with a false comfort, so that they will be unprepared for the great tribulation when it does come upon them.
Poonen



in other words he has gotten the church to start degraging from the inside out by a few faithless then more and they fed off of eachother!

i persionaly am leaning toward the Pre-trib rapture. oh let me be clear that the word "rapture" will not be found in any clear true and rightly translated bibles! why? becasue the bibles use words like "twinkling of an eye" and "caught up" and "two wemon will be at a mill, one will go to the Lord, the other will be left" meaning either our bodys will drop dead or we will de-materialize into and earthly perspective of "nothingness" when that happens the antichrist will be pouring out is mess and crap against all of the nations. NO OBAMA IS NOT THE ANTICHRIST! NO ONE FROM AMERICA CAN BECOME ANTICHRIST! Obama is from here and antichrist is supposed to be from the middle east (people i trust interperate in areas near rome/romania/ rome like places) so dont worry.

search for the truth, trust God to lead you to the TRUTH and His WISDOM and He will, if you mean it and will agree with Him to be His.

also, if you are scared about the rapture happening then i am sure you are not right with God the way you know you should be. That does not include worrying about people you know... trust me i am scared for my friends and family. i love them and i dont know that they will go to heaven with me.

YOU MUST TRUST IN GOD! i dont want to sound condesinding but you dont know how much time you have left in this world! i dont know how much time i have left. i dont want you to go through the stuff prophesied in the Revelations about the wraths against the ones that are not HIs.


_________________
allan

 2009/1/15 22:33Profile





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