| Poster | Thread |
tjservant
Member
Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA
| | Re: | | Quote:
And yes it is fatalistic
Fatalism places the running of the universe into the hands of blind random chance. Calvinists (those that embrace the doctrines of grace) place the running of the universe in the hands of all wise, all loving and all just God. There is a world of difference.
One can call Calvinism deterministic, but not fatalistic.
_________________
TJ
|
|
 2009/1/13 14:18 | Profile |
sermonindex
Moderator
Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada
Online! | | Re: | | Quote:
human responsibility
There is simply no "human responsibility" allowed before conversion. If you are not elect all you can choose is evil and therefore your life surely is "fatalistic".
_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
|
|
| 2009/1/13 14:42 | Profile |
stephent
Member
Joined: 2008/12/29
Posts: 27
Boston, Ma.
| | Re: damned if I do, damned if I don't. | | Pre-destination not Pre-determination. I would hope someone would engage in some good pro calvinistic discussion on this one: I can't choose to accept Christ because of my depraved nature. But when I make a choice to accept Christ, it's then seen as what? I was elected? |
|
| 2009/1/13 14:57 | Profile |
| | Re: | | I would like to note the comment made around the 1 hour and 6 minute mark of the recording. It is stated that that a "line has to be drawn" and that they (their teenagers specifically in context) should not have any fellowship or communication with Calvinists, regardless if they are true brethren or not (Paul Washer specifically named and included).
This is so grieving... and is not of God. Though it is the perogative of the eldership of charity to state such things to their young people I wonder why you would promote this carnal dividing of the body of Christ under the guise of "rightly dividing the word of truth".
Greg, something is terribly wrong with this?
In Christ - Jim (a non-calvinist) |
|
| 2009/1/13 15:23 | |
tjservant
Member
Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA
| | Re: | | Quote:
sermonindex wrote:
Quote:
human responsibility
There is simply no "human responsibility" allowed before conversion. If you are not elect all you can choose is evil and therefore your life surely is "fatalistic".
Many Christians from all different theological and philosophical persuasions attack the Calvinistic interpretation of the compatibility of divine sovereignty and human responsibility as espoused in reformed soteriology. The traditional view of freedom in Calvinism is that God can indeed ordain or 'determine' future events, but He does so in such a way that does not violate man's true responsibility. In other words, even though an action may be determined does not annul that fact that when a decision is made it is indeed out of that agent's true moral disposition.
Two camps argue against this: Libertarianism and Fatalism. While many think that the Calvinistic system by logic necessitates a fatalistic view on history it is not the predominant view. There are some who espouse Fatalism which is the view that determinism is incompatible with genuine human freedom, and therefore man's freedom is an illusion. On the other side, metaphysical Libertarianism says that a decision is only free when agents can chose A, B, or ~A/B. They would deny the view that God is a determinative agent in the history of man. Source [url=http://www.imperishableinheritance.com/2006/common-arguments-against-reformed-theology/]here[/url]
Quote:
There is simply no "human responsibility" allowed before conversion.
They are doing exactly what they want to be doing.
Both of these arguments have been leveled against Calvinism several times on SI. Each time someone, like I am doing now, points out that there is another view that holds credibility and historical significances.
I do not believe Calvinism is fatalistic. I believe it is deterministic, as determined by God. We do not simply wait to see what cards "fate" deals us.
I believe the there is a compatibility of divine sovereignty and human responsibility. I may not understand how it all works, but that makes it no less true.
_________________
TJ
|
|
| 2009/1/13 15:25 | Profile |
HeartSong
Member
Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3179
| | Re: | | I have a question.
What about the people that are Calvinists that believe in God and Jesus, but determine themselves to not be one of the elect? Would this not leave them without hope? Would it not cause envy, and bitterness and strife?
I know someone like this. She comes from a strict Reformed upbringing and says that we are all just puppets on a string and that God pulls on the strings just to watch us jump. The closer I get to the Lord, the more this person hates me, and now I think I know why. This is not the way of my Lord - He would not turn away someone that truly wanted to come to Him. But if she thinks He has rejected her, why should she even try?
Edit: Oh, this is horrible. No wonder it has been like trying to talk to a brick wall. No wonder they beat each other up and tear each other down. No wonder it is all about appearances - as if what is on the outside can somehow validate what is missing on the inside. Oh Lord, help me break through. Use me Father - shine forth Thy beautiful Light. |
|
| 2009/1/14 4:07 | Profile |
HeartSong
Member
Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3179
| | Re: | | Quote:
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. [b]All that the Father giveth me[/b] shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:35-40)
A sound exegesis has yet to be offered for John 6:35-40 that is consistent with the Arminian position.
The bride is tested before she is given to the Groom - just like Rebekah was at the well.
|
|
| 2009/1/14 5:05 | Profile |
tjservant
Member
Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA
| | Re: | | Quote:
HeartSong wrote:
I have a question.
What about the people that are Calvinists that believe in God and Jesus, but determine themselves to not be one of the elect? Would this not leave them without hope? Would it not cause envy, and bitterness and strife?
I know someone like this. She comes from a strict Reformed upbringing and says that we are all just puppets on a string and that God pulls on the strings just to watch us jump. The closer I get to the Lord, the more this person hates me, and now I think I know why. This is not the way of my Lord - He would not turn away someone that truly wanted to come to Him. But if she thinks He has rejected her, why should she even try?
Edit: Oh, this is horrible. No wonder it has been like trying to talk to a brick wall. No wonder they beat each other up and tear each other down. No wonder it is all about appearances - as if what is on the outside can somehow validate what is missing on the inside. Oh Lord, help me break through. Use me Father - shine forth Thy beautiful Light.
That does sound terrible. I dont understand any Christian hating another
One of the worst misconceptions is that Calvinists deny human responsibility. That comes from the hyper-Calvinist camp and is just as bad as the other extreme.
_________________
TJ
|
|
| 2009/1/14 7:25 | Profile |
whyme
Member
Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293
| | Re: | | Brother Greg,
I don't want to confuse the discussion or be in error, but I think most reformed believers ( I mean most ) believe that salvation is monergistic ( all of God ) and sanctification is synergistic ( done in enablement and help with God but with human responsibility ) Further, sinful mankind behaves wickedly synergistically in the sense they fully cooperate both in desire and deed ( ie., they are responsible ) but not with God but rather with their father the devil by doing his desire and his works. |
|
| 2009/1/14 8:38 | Profile |
TaylorOtwell
Member
Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas
| | Re: | | Quote:
The bride is tested before she is given to the Groom - just like Rebekah was at the well.
HeartSong,
[i]And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:35-40)[/i]
In this passage, the people are given to Christ before they even come to Christ (believe). There is nothing in this passage about a prior testing before they are considered good enough to give to Christ. It is strictly out of the Father's good pleasure and grace.
So, I assume you mean they are tested as unbelievers in some fashion? If so, it must not be for belief, because they are given to Christ before they believe. What kind of testing do you suppose these unbelievers go through before they are considered worthy (I speak as a fool) to be given to Christ?
With care in Christ,
Taylor
_________________
Taylor Otwell
|
|
| 2009/1/14 8:53 | Profile |
