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TroyorTakoda
Member



Joined: 2008/12/13
Posts: 46


 Please delete this thread

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_________________
Troy A Lasseigne

 2009/1/4 11:19Profile









 Re: Troy

Brother,
Before I begin my post, my response, I pray you "feel" my words, which are gentle and soft. Though I disagree and utterly refute every statement issued by "Amnesty International", etc. I do so with gentleness towards you, I beg you, understand this.

I am a Jew who follows Jesus, who confesses Jesus as Messiah.

There was a time in my life, in the early 80's when I was going to "make aliyah", that's what we term emigrating to Israel, but I never did, just because I "fell" back into the comfort of America after having served in the military in a very tense part of the world, the only part of our empire where we are in a constant state of readiness. I dont really regret because Gods Will and Mind is unsearchable, I might have never come to Messiah, while living in Israel, and the Riches of Jesus are so precious. But when I hear of such as is happening now, my soul is torn in two, that I'm not there, serving.

That might sound bad to you, or cast me in the light of a craven warmonger, and I disagree neither to argue with you, or to persuade you to turn from your position, or to denigrate your position, but I know this, the destroyer, you know him as satan, or some call him the enemy, others call him the 'god of this age' has endevoured since the time that Jesus was nailed to the tree, to kill off ALL the Jewish people, he used hitler and his minions, and almost succeeded, 6 million Jews...gone, and now he uses the arabs.

I know you disagree with me, and thats okay, no rancor here, but I ask you this, if you could, just view this presentation, and pray over it, and consider it all in the light of what has been prophesied by John, .....by the way, I am no neo-con, nor right or left wingers, just hiding up under God's wing (read Psalm 91)

and please just know, that my heart is so heavy, so full of grief, I can barely make it thru today. natan

[url=http://fun.mivzakon.co.il/flash/video/2664/2664.html]Israel and the Arabs[/url]

May God bless you and fill you.

 2009/1/4 14:49
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Human Rights in Gaza

This has got to be the worst piece of journalism I have ever read. Hardly would it make one mad if it wasn't so carelessly stitched together.

Trying to navigate through a myriad of wrong headed assumptions will be difficult but here goes nevertheless.

I do not know that there is a collective support that neatly divides that which Israel as a modern nation does as carte blanche is always deemed right or responsible in the eyes of those of us who call ourselves Christian. Now to say the obvious will surely be misinterpreted but there is something very ... odd - That anytime Israel defends itself they are seen as the aggressor, the math does not add up. When the rockets come launching in from Hamas there is not a peep, not from the International community, not from Amnesty, not from anyone lest they be those in harms way. Is this a defense of their retaliation? Or the other issues surrounding the suppressing of the Palestinians? No. Definitely not. At the same time and too complicate the matters is the fact that these are terrorists to begin with ... it is just not that simple and this idea of just suddenly opening the gates is foolhardy and illogical.

If it was a matter of my personal opinion I find the whole thing very grievous indeed and wouldn't with a knee jerk reaction instantaneously support Israel when it is obvious that they are very complacent in creating the situation that is suppressing the people of Gaza. But if anything, we ought to get our facts straight, which leads to;

Quote:
A brief history of the United States, according to Howard Zinn



Brief would be an understatement. It's sloppy and incoherent. What does Africa have to do with America in this context and what does any of this have to do with the situation in Gaza? Trying to draw a poor parallel?

Quote:
I have only one question for American Christians who think we should support Israel no matter what: Would the real people of God persecute citizens of their own country just because they are a different race and/or religion?



Is this really the issue? When Israel itself lives with the very tensions of Muslims, Christians and Orthodox Jews in something as oft contested as the Temple Mount? No. It is not the issue and making it one is to add needless fuel to a powder keg.

I do not agree with the tactics of Israel and I certainly do not agree with idiots who strap bombs to themselves and blow up innocent bystanders thinking they are doing a service to 'god'.

This is a lot of rhetoric.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/1/4 15:10Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

I do not know which part of this is yours and that which is someone else's or where they blur so yes, I am a bit off put by it as a whole. Didn't intend to be unduly harsh.

I can see upon rereading this where the parallels could be drawn after all and would try and hedge it off before it gets further misconstrued. There is no denying everything that has gone on in American History and likely part of my ... slight indignation has to do with a great piece I read recently on History in general, hopefully I will obtain permission to re-type it here someday.

If I also must be brief, it would amount to parsing aspects and making them stand on all fours when it comes to History. There is a great deal to be said in the little pamphlet I read about how the school systems (college included) and teaching of all matters of academics have been contorted towards a certain view, a certain agenda ... am getting well past myself here. But it does center around a certain man by the name of Dewey. When History comes into play, if it does at all, it too is squeezed through a funnel to produce the desired effects.

What struck me here as it has elsewhere in the reporting is this 'numbers racket' if I could put it that way. It comes across like it is some sort of sporting event, lopsided by numbers of casualties as the deciding factor. How many unnecessary deaths on either side does it take to cause an outrage ... So crass and depleting.

A world away though 'greater numbers' if I must use the same disgusting logic is a foot and has been ongoing for quite some time. It just usually tends to slide off the radar since it doesn't have the same sort of ... what is it really? "Entertainment value"?

[url=http://www.religiousintelligence.co.uk/news/?NewsID=3560]Zimbabwe inflation poses threat to all, including the Government [/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/1/4 15:47Profile









 Michael

though I utterly refute and disagree with Troy's offering, why the tenor of your post to him?

and I'll say what I said to him, I make my post to you in utter meekness and soft of voice, and I ask this as a Jew who follows Jesus, why is it, that some Gentile Christians, who are ingrafted Children of Abraham, just don't get the utter torment of the Jewish people, who are so close, yet so far.

and my torment TODAY is so tremendous upon my heart, I cant even hardly type these words.

and my torment multiplies, because I know that many within the Church are the physical and/or "spiritual" offspring of those who rampaged thru Europe and thru the Middle East hundreds of years ago , even decades ago, with the cry, "kill a Jew for Jesus"....that is what happened, as well as the later hate-filled writings of Martin Luther, which absolutely break my heart in two .....and I don't mean to be contentious, or divisive, or argumentative, but just give me the word, and I'll delete my link to that presentation, and if you so desire, feel free to delete my account, because when I read what you wrote:

Quote:
I do not agree with the tactics of Israel



I have to ask, what would you do?

I remember a time on this very forum, late 2002 to 2003, when many many believers supported a pre-emptive invasion of Iraq, and it was all based on lies.

Rockets and missiles flying into Israel proper are facts. Venomous "sermons" from muslim clerics are facts, what should Israel do?

What should I do? vis-avis this forum? as I feel that many many brothers and sisters just dont get the torment of the Jews.

I've already "de-friended" from facebook ,a dear sister in Jesus, a Gentile, because when I posted that presentation, her comments led to me believe that she has no idea the torment of the Jews, and the tragic fact they are "so close yet so far" from Messiah, and what Israel means to THIS Jew, who is a fellow follower of Messiah, and rather than "torment" her, I'd rather walk away from fellowship, albeit cyber fellowship.

and you have no idea how today, I want to lay on my face, and weep, and how wrecked I am, so please, feel free to close my account, or tell me to take that presentation link down.

natan, known as neil

 2009/1/4 16:08
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Michael

Neil,

One of the great problems here is in making things personal when they need not be, it confuses everything.

What I am taking umbrage with is making complicated matters seemingly simplistic by the use of sheer rhetoric, which is what far too many do, Amnesty not the least nor the last. If you re-read what I have stated it is just as largely aligned with a befuddlement over just what is it about Israel that has the nations gnashing their teeth at them, even if I didn't put it in so many words. It is, at the very least peculiar ... Indeed just what is it they are supposed to do? I don't know, but are not those in Gaza still being cut off from all sorts of normative necessities nevertheless? And that even before all this started up?

To begin to tie this into prophetic utterance, to what Israel represents today as to an equivalent biblical past ... I stand unbiased or better slightly on the side of err best I can tell. The real answer is I just do not know one way or the other. Nowhere is there any mention one way or the other of the plight of the Jews, that is your insertion - does that mean I have no concern or just no mention?

And you might be surprised about Luther, it may not pacify everything, explain everything but it is worth at least a consideration - It surprised me a bit. I will dig up the link and post it at bottom.

That little piece I think also speaks volumes about where we can go very much wrongheaded on scant information. It's not everything and it just seems to me we ought to be more ... factual, considerate of all the intangibles in complex situations. It is in no way so cut and dried as we might have it. The suffering is spread about, even if it is not seen as equal. Too often these things even in discussing them turn into hotbeds of contentious argument built on emotion, politics, rhetoric ... but are they so? Is this really a 'religious' issue only or is it as I stated having to deal with terrorists which complicates the whole matter. What is there to the very idea that they know full well what they do by provoking and then turning it around to make it all look like Israel 'brought it on themselves'. But again, as true as this tactic is likely to be, how much of it is, in a sense partially true? Right or wrong - there it is nevertheless.

[url=http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/libel_againstluther.htm]Libel Against Luther[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/1/4 16:50Profile
TroyorTakoda
Member



Joined: 2008/12/13
Posts: 46


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_________________
Troy A Lasseigne

 2009/1/4 17:07Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 How could I keep from supporting Israel, the pull is too strong.

Hello Neil,

Thank you for the link to that presentation. It was illuminating. Since all my facts have been learned from the American TV so called 'world' news, I always knew something was not right about what they say.

I never knew it was a lie about the Jews pushing the Palestinians out of their Country. It is not a Country they want. Not only do they want death for Israel but for America, as well.

More than ever I feel the need to get as close to Jesus as I can and not leave His side. There is only safety there.

Kindest regards,
white stone


_________________
Janice

 2009/1/4 17:29Profile









 It's okay...Mike

(said in a loving friendly voice:)

I'm just having a terrible awful day, and at the top of that list is the situation in Israel, followed by a father dying in the hospital, and a mother who doesnt have it together to get the medicine she needs, and missing a beloved son, only a week after being with him at Christmas, and...and...and....

so What is left is Jesus Messiah, and He is enough, more than enough to comfort me, if only I would let Him.

sorry bro for any drama.

neil

 2009/1/4 17:55









 Thank you white stone.

Your words make weep with gratitude.

After Jesus, my hero of the Bible is King David. And I should be in Israel now, in uniform, ready to serve, but I'm not, and I feel impotent and weak.

the reason I didnt emigrate back then, was truth be told I didnt WANT to kill arabs, and I can assure you not one solider in the IDF does, but that was weak kneed reasoning on my part. Hence my guilt.

Golda Meir told Anwar Sadat (and I paraphrase) "we dont despise you for your sons killing our sons, but for the fact you turned our sons into killers".

God bless you for the balm of your words, neil

 2009/1/4 18:07





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