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White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

Hello KingJimmy,

Your arguments do not hold water. There is no comparing the practice of worship held by the early Christian's and those of today. There were no mortgages owed on buildings used for the Lord's Supper. There were no 'music programs,' or PA equipment to pay for.

The early Christian's were not set in stone, they may have moved from place to place, just as people do now. They could not have been expected to have been locked into attending the same Church family for life.

If there is total starvation for the Spirit of God how can you prove we must stay or justify the statement below?

Quote:
To do so is to create division in the body of Christ, and is just as much sin and carnality as those who are living in adulterous relationships.



That sounds terribly judgmental and opinionated to me.

Kind regards,
white stone


_________________
Janice

 2009/1/4 0:39Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

KingJimmy wrote:

Quote:



As for house churches, no, I've never "formally" been involved with a house church. Every Friday night though, I do open my apartment up for a time of fellowship with other men in the church. There is no formality to it. We show up, we eat, we share, we look at Scriptures, we lay hands on one another, we pray, and we go home. There is no leader. We simply meet under the headship of Christ, and simply as brethren. Some weeks some men have more to share than others. Sometimes our schedules conflict and we don't get together at all.

I believe God has called me to be a church planter here in America one day. He has put it in my heart to plant a church that is as organic as possible, and be house/cell based. But, I'm not opposed to having a larger more formal Sunday morning service so long as its done in the right spirit.




Brother, you ARE a part of a House Church.


Welcome! :-)


_________________
Christiaan

 2009/1/4 1:22Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:
Your arguments do not hold water.



Can you show me Scriptural justification for refusing to fellowship with other believers on the grounds that they are not Spirit-filled enough in their church services? Remember, Paul said some in Corinth were dividing on grounds that they were of Cephas, Barnabas, Paul... and then there were those who were saying they were dividing on grounds that they were "...of Christ!" Paul condemned all as a fit of carnality and immaturity. That includes those who said they were the sect of Jesus!

"We gather around the headship of Jesus Christ alone!" I submit to you in all humility and brotherly love that this is a lie from hell. It's just as divisive as those who say they are of Cephas, Barnabas, Paul, the Baptists, Pentecostals, Presbyterians or whoever. The believer who is truly spiritual, those who Paul calls "the approved among you," are those who can gather together with any group of brethren, no matter their denominational affiliation and no matter their state of spiritual maturity. It is the spiritually immature who pull away from genuine fellowship with other believers simply because they don't quite add up to the stature they think somebody should i.e. Ravenhill's.

Quote:

If there is total starvation for the Spirit of God how can you prove we must stay or justify the statement below?



Wherever two or three are gathered, He is there. Just because the movement of the Spirit tends to be on the stagnant side when believers gather doesn't mean He's not there. Biblically speaking, He's ALWAYS there so long as His people are. He's just as much there in an out of control Corinthian gathering where the gifts are abused as He is in a church where there is no demonstration of the gifts. Both churches are just as immature spiritually, though perhaps the stagnant church where there is no one-anothering is more fit, because at least they aren't being competitive and rude with the usage of their gifts, and stepping on one anothers toes in order to display their gift.

Wherever the Lord is, the Spirit is. If there are any who are saved at any gathering, then His presence is definitely there. Whether it be in an institutional setting or a house church setting. His presence is there just the same. This is truth. And if Jesus can fellowship with the people in the stagnant church, and still live inside of them, immature as they are, then there is no reason you should ever leave them. Indeed, it is your duty rather as a Christian to stay, and to strengthen the hands of the weak.

Oh, no doubt, your staying and doing things that are unconventional even as they persist in the status quo will probably bother them, and possibly create some conflicts within that church. But such is a cross one must bear. Simply withdrawing from fellowship is nothing more than cross avoidance. It's a cowardly thing to do. And there can be no Pentecost without going through the cross.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/1/4 14:27Profile









 Re:

Hi KingJimmy

I have a lot of sympathy for what you write. Yet I think it may be over-general. For instance, what would you tell a Catholic who was born-again? Would you tell him to stay where he was and not avoid his cross? What about a Baptist who gets Spirit filled and there is no place for that in the church where he worships?

Last questions, given that omnipresence is a fact, God is always everywhere, how does that differ from manifest presence, corporate presence? Why does Jesus say to His people "come to me?" When Jesus is knocking on the doors of the hearts of His people, then movement has to be made to open the door. When Scripture talks about "God coming down," there is movement implied. Can we take for granted that by merely two or three Christians showing up in the one place, that God will be there other than the fact that He is omnipresent? When Christians talk about "His presence," what exactly are they talking about? Does there not need to be hunger and thirst? Can we take God's presence for granted? Can we skip to God and give him some of what we have, like Cain? Would that be acceptable to God?.......brother Frank

 2009/1/4 15:35
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

I have a lot of sympathy for what you write. Yet I think it may be over-general. For instance, what would you tell a Catholic who was born-again? Would you tell him to stay where he was and not avoid his cross? What about a Baptist who gets Spirit filled and there is no place for that in the church where he worships?



I believe you are misunderstanding me. I have emphasized throughout my posst that I am assuming that one is gathering with real believers who actually have Jesus living inside of them. People who have actually been saved. As far as a Baptist getting Spirit-filled, he should by all means attempt to continue on at the Baptist church he is in. Unfortunately, many Southern Baptist churches will make no room for him, and will show him the door. It is one thing to be kicked out of a church and have nowhere to go, it is quite another to break away with a contentious "I can do better elsewhere" attitude.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/1/4 20:13Profile









 Re:

Quote


"I am assuming that one is gathering with real believers who actually have Jesus living inside of them. People who have actually been saved."

Thats quite a gathering :)I dont think that there are just two points of view though. To be either kicked out or to leave thinking that you can do better. Especially today, I think a lot of people are leaving churches simply because they cannot get any real fellowship, or have exhuasted themselves over many years tryig to be patient and working for change.......brother Frank

 2009/1/4 20:23
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

The only reasons I personally can justify leaving a church for are: 1) You move far away 2) God actually tells you to go somewhere else 3) They kick you out.

Leaving a church because they don't play the way you'd like them to play, however, I think is entirely unjustified. Indeed, sometimes its more complicated than this. But, if you've read the rebukes Christ gave 5 of the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3, you'll never once see Christ give any faithful on fire believers the "Come out of her My people!" type call many profess to hear today. What do you find instead? You find Christ warning those churches to get their act together. And these were in churches that had problems much bigger than being seeker friendly! He commends the faithful for their faithfulness, and corrects those who are in error for their error. And as Paul makes clear to the Corinthians, if people are in error, you need to hold them to account for that error.

Lord, seriously. Have we actually read the Bible in all its ugly nakedness? Have we actually read Paul's epistles? We need to clear our minds of all these romantic notions of what the early church was really like. Seriously, consider Corinth. At Corinth you had sectarianism running wild, people living in open sexual immorality of the grossest kind-- and bragging about it, confusion about proper gender roles, people getting drunk on communion wine, people neglecting the poor during the Lord's Supper, charismatic chaos, and if that weren't bad enough, there was a great question mark about if Jesus was really raised from the dead!!!

This is a church Paul ministered to! And guess what? He still opened his epistle to them, greeting them as brethren, and calling this bunch of pigs sanctified! Never once did he encourage the few there who were living right to leave and go start another church down the street. Rather, he called upon the church to correct those who were in error... just as he was doing.

No doubt, many of us, probably including myself, would have been tempted to leave that bunch and write them off. No doubt, they make many of the churches I have been part of look so good. And one might seem justified in quietly packing up their bags and moving on. But, this is not in keeping with the mind of Christ, and contrary to the apostolic pattern that was displayed for us by our brother Paul.

Do what you want to. But I will follow Paul, for he followed Christ.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/1/4 22:36Profile









 Re:

Hi KingJimmy

What about the Catholic church? They claim to be Christians, will you decide that they are not, will you say to Catholics who discover Jesus to "buck up little camper," and stay where you are? Just a little naieve and romanticised. Do you know what Corinth was? It was a city, with perhaps 500,000 people. The church was one entity, with many gatherings. If you left one gathering and fellowshipped in another, you would still be part of the Corinthian church. You are using a modern model to apply to Scripture. Quote......

"Leaving a church because they don't play the way you'd like them to play, however, I think is entirely unjustified."

I think that sentence is extremly condecending, as though many good Christians make the descision to leave a church lightly. This is not a conversation about church-hoppers, its about a genuine struggle where people, at their wits ends, after years of struggling , and hearing from the Lord, decide to leave.....brother Frank

PS..I have no romantic notions about the early church.

 2009/1/4 23:41
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Thank you, Brother Frank

I can not tell you how much your post has meant to my husband and myself! Even although my response to KingJimmy was critical of his comparing the modern Church to the 'Home Style' Church in the Apostle Paul's day, his passionate argument made us feel confused.

As much confusion and pain KingJimmy's posts have caused I have assurance in these words from Romans 8:28
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Praise Jesus, He is my Lord, and He will give me a
white stone


_________________
Janice

 2009/1/5 0:11Profile









 Re: Thank you, Brother Frank

God bless you guys. The modern day church bears no resemblence at all to what we see in Scripture. The Lord will lead and guide you guys, of that I have no doubt....brother Frank

 2009/1/5 1:08





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