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 "Calvinism Is Not The Issue!" - Paul Washer

[img]https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photos/210.jpg[/img]

Saints,

I feel this is a very important statement by brother Paul. We need to in our youth especially be about Christ and sharing Him with others instead of so much emphasis on theology and positional arguing. We must preach the message of the gospel where God can save a soul from death. If we believe that man has absolutely no part in that process or that man has a "part" that is not as much the issue as that God is the initiator of salvation and the born-again experience.

[b]"Calvinism Is Not The Issue!" - Paul Washer[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=210


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 Re: "Calvinism Is Not The Issue!" - Paul Washer

Amen.

** Edit - Added additional statements **

We should ask ourselves if our primary concern is to see that people are soundly saved and truly converted or simply converted to our sound theology.


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 Re: "Calvinism Is Not The Issue!" - Paul Washer

Amen...lets check the ego's at the door.

 2008/12/31 23:08
Abe_Juliot
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 Re:

Quote:
If we believe that man has absolutely no part in that process or that man has a "part" that is not as much the issue as that God is the initiator of salvation and the born-again experience.



I agree that we should endeavor to find unity in the truth of the gospel.

I agree with what Spurgeon said concerning God's gospel:

I do not believe we can preach the gospel if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing unchangeable eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross. (Charles Spurgeon, The New Park Street Pulpit, Vol. 1, 1856).

[Edit addition:

I came across a similar quote as above by Spurgeon... Except he added these sobering words,

"Nor can I comprehend a Gospel which lets saints fall away
after they are called, and allows the children of God to
be burned in the fires of damnation after having believed.

Such a gospel I abhor!
The Gospel of the Bible is not such Gospel as that." -Spurgeon [url=http://www.gracegems.org/13/gospel.htm]Source[/url]

Edit addition end (Mon Jan 5, 2009)]




I question whether we have preached the whole counsel of God, unless predestination with all its solemnity and sureness be continually declared. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 6, p. 26).

What the Arminian wants to do is to arouse man's activity: what we want to do is to kill it once for all - to show him that he is lost and ruined, and that his activities are not now at all equal to the work of conversion; that he must look upward. They seek to make the man stand up: we seek to bring him down, and make him feel that there he lies in the hand of God, and that his business is to submit himself to God, and cry aloud, 'Lord, save, or we perish.' We hold that man is never so near grace as when he begins to feel he can do nothing at all. When he says, 'I can pray, I can believe, I can do this, and I can do the other,' marks of self-sufficiency and arrogance are on his brow. -C. H. Spurgeon

I also agree with the comments of Sermonindex concerning the following sermons.

[url=http://media.sermonindex.net/0/SID0656.mp3]6 Things We Face in Preaching the Gospel[/url] by Rolfe Barnard

Description: Rolfe Barnard shares on the sad state of modern day Christianity. Many believe in a 20th century concept of God that cannot defend his church or make the gospel effect in our day. We need to believe in a gospel that can convert and save souls for eternity. He shares 6 things that we face in our modern day when preaching the old gospel.

"A powerful exhortation on many aspects of the gospel that we have neglected and are missing in our modern day preaching. Oh for a gospel that glories God abases man and is worth everything. Weeping shall endure for a night but joy comes in the morning. Blessed are those that mourn (weep) for they shall be comforted." -Sermonindex
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=847&commentView=itemComments]Source[/url]

[url=http://media.sermonindex.net/0/SID0668.mp3]Recovery of the Gospel[/url] by Rolfe Barnard

Description: One of the most important needs of the day is the recovery of the true glorious gospel of the mighty God our Lord Jesus Christ. If sin is as deadly as the bible says it is and the devil as real as the bible says he is then to understand the true gospel of grace is the utmost need of our day. We are great sinners, sinning against a great God, that has offered us a great salvation.

"This recording by Rolfe Barnard is a crying, urgent, vital message for something "real" and the need for the true gospel to be preached and believed again. This is not ordinary message but a prophetic calling out to the true body of Christ. May a urgency and unsettling be put your spirit when you hear this important sermon from the past. If it was urgent in his days how much more in our days. The gospel has been furthered lost in our day. May God send a reviving of the true gospel again." - Sermonindex
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=859&commentView=itemComments]Source[/url]

I have seen first hand on the mission field what a denial of these truths can bring forth. I have seen the devastation and despair of ignorance to these biblical truths. I don't think we should ignore biblical truths that the gospel of the glory of God hinges on. Nor should we brush them under the rug.

George Whitefield perhaps shed many tears over John Wesley's denial of these truths when he wrote an open letter to him.
[url=http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/wesley.htm]Read Here[/url]

I encourage us to promote Jesus Christ and not the name Calvinism. For those who are studying the doctrines of grace, I encourage you to spend much time in communion with God in the Word. As arguments about these truths may arise, I plead with you to not make the same mistakes that I have in the past. Seek to exhort the brethren to a deeper communion with God as you share the Word. There is a danger of being full of head knowledge and having no humility in your heart as you exhort others. There is a danger of not applying the Word by prayer and close communion with God. Seek to encourage the brethren and be patient with those who disagree.

Beloved, let us love one another. -Abraham

EDIT: punctuation and sentence structure


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 Re: "Calvinism Is Not The Issue!" - Paul Washer

Greetings:

I respectfully disagree in one sense. One can justly say that "Islam is not the issue", or, "Satanism is not the issue", or, "Child sacrifice is not the issue", just as much as, "Calvinism is not the issue." I believe that we as Christians should reach out to the lost with the gospel of Jesus Christ. We are commanded by our Lord to go out into the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Yes, and Amen. But we are also called to earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints. This means that "Calvinism" (as well as any other teaching contrary to sound doctrine) must, and should be of great concern for those who love the truth. Forgive me if I am wrong but if my information is correct, Mr. Washer is a "Calvinist." If this is so, maybe Mr.Washer wants to take the focus off of the theology of "Calvin" so as to protect it from biblical scrutiny. if "Calvinism" should not be of any concern then maybe nothing taught as "sound" doctrine should be of any concern. I believe that "Calvinism" (as well as all the other "ism's") in the Church-world should be examined in light of the Holy Scriptures. With all due respect to Mr. Washer, and any other "Calvinist" I do not believe that John Calvin nor his "Calvinism" is the faith that was once delivered to the saints. I believe John Calvin was a little protestant "pope" and a murderer and "Calvinism" to be warmed-over Augustinian drival.

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 Re:

Quote:
6 Things We Face in Preaching the Gospel by Rolfe Barnard

Description: Rolfe Barnard shares on the sad state of modern day Christianity. Many believe in a 20th century concept of God that cannot defend his church or make the gospel effect in our day. We need to believe in a gospel that can convert and save souls for eternity. He shares 6 things that we face in our modern day when preaching the old gospel.

"A powerful exhortation on many aspects of the gospel that we have neglected and are missing in our modern day preaching. Oh for a gospel that glories God abases man and is worth everything. Weeping shall endure for a night but joy comes in the morning. Blessed are those that mourn (weep) for they shall be comforted." -Sermonindex
Source

Recovery of the Gospel by Rolfe Barnard

Description: One of the most important needs of the day is the recovery of the true glorious gospel of the mighty God our Lord Jesus Christ. If sin is as deadly as the bible says it is and the devil as real as the bible says he is then to understand the true gospel of grace is the utmost need of our day. We are great sinners, sinning against a great God, that has offered us a great salvation.

"This recording by Rolfe Barnard is a crying, urgent, vital message for something "real" and the need for the true gospel to be preached and believed again. This is not ordinary message but a prophetic calling out to the true body of Christ. May a urgency and unsettling be put your spirit when you hear this important sermon from the past. If it was urgent in his days how much more in our days. The gospel has been furthered lost in our day. May God send a reviving of the true gospel again." - Sermonindex
Source


My quotes and commendations of these messages is not to promote Calvinism and its theology but to promote what the Spirit of God is burdening through that man towards Bible Truth. I am not advocating teachings of the Sovereignty of God that nullify men's responsibility.

God is ashamed of people who argue and banter about His scriptures when they do not come to Christ in His fulness and have unity amongst brethren. The reformation only brought back "some" truths to the Church that were lost. We need a much more fuller revelation of the truth of Church.


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 Re:

I encourage everyone to listen to these 2 messages by Rolfe Barnard. Rolfe Barnard like Spurgeon and Whitefield had a God-centered burden for souls. These men Preached man's responsibility and God's Sovereignty. Men of God like John Piper and Paul Washer do the same.

Quote:
I am not advocating teachings of the Sovereignty of God that nullify men's responsibility.



Amen. Not all Calvinistic preachers neglect to preach man's responsibility. It doesn't appear that Paul Washer is addressing this issue in the Video.

I agree that we should teach man's responsibility and God's Sovereignty. Spurgeon, Whitefield, and Barnard preached both these truths. Biblical God-centered preaching never departs from these truths. Sadly there are some men who love to speak about man's inability... But, they do not have a burden to plead with sinners to come to Christ. We should plead with sinners to flee from sin and cherish Christ. The eternity of Heaven and Hell should bring soberness and tears in our preaching.

Jonathan Edwards said this, "We are not merely passive, nor yet does God do some, and we do the rest. But, God does all, and we do all. God produces all, and we act all. For that is what he produces, viz. our own acts. God is the only proper author and fountain; we only are the proper actors. We are, in different respects, wholly passive and wholly active.

In the Scriptures the same things are represented as from God and from us. God is said to convert [2Tim. 2:25], and men are said to convert and turn [Acts 2:38]. God makes a new heart [Ezek. 36:26], and we are commanded to make us a new heart [Ezek. 18:31]. God circumcises the heart [Deut. 30:6], and we are commanded to circumcise our own hearts [Deut. 10:16]... These things are agreeable to the text, "God worketh in you both to will and to do." (Edwards, Efficacious Grace, 557.)


Quote:
God is ashamed of people who argue and banter about His scriptures when they do not come to Christ in His fulness and have unity amongst brethren.



Many of God's children have been guilty of stumbling in this sin. I myself have and it grieves me. I'm not sure what you mean by "fulness"? If you mean regeneration and bringing forth the fruit of repentance... It is very possible to be in this fullness and stumble into sin and I would agree that God is ashamed of those who have not entered this rest. God is ashamed of children of the devil who argue about scripture.

However, if you mean a born again believer who has not had the Second Crisis Baptism of Fire that some say we need in order to be part of the bride...

I would not say that God is ashamed of them for not being as holy as they could be. I don't know if you are saying that. It doesn't really appear that you are. I know some brethren that do teach this and you know them also.

I want to use this opportunity to speak to those who believe that God is ashamed of some of His children. There are some that believe and teach this. So, I am at least correcting them. (For the purpose of preaching the gospel and edifying the body of Christ)

Every child of God has the Grace of repentance working in them (Jer 32:40, 1Jn 5:18)... though they may fall many times (Psa 37:24, Pro 24:16), God is not ashamed to call them brethren (Heb 2:11), and God is not ashamed to be called their God (Heb 11:16) and the children of God are not ashamed of Christ and His words (Mk 8:38) for they do the will of their Father which is in heaven (Mk 12:48-50). Though at times She sees herself as black (2Sa 12:13, Lk 5:8), Christ cleanses her (Eph 5:25-26), loves her (Jer 31:3), and says She is all fair (Son 1:5,15). Yea, let us rejoice that Christ says to His bride, "There is no spot in thee." (Son 4:7) For Christ is our everlasting righteousness. (Dan 9:24, 1Co 1:30, 2Co 5:21)

As children of God, when we fall into a sin, God is ashamed of our sin and we should be ashamed of it also. Amen.

God bless you dear brother!
-Abraham


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 Re: "Calvinism Is Not The Issue!" - Paul Washer

It is not my desire to write long responses. But, I am persuaded that this needs to be said.

Quote:
The reformation only brought back "some" truths to the Church that were lost. We need a much more fuller revelation of the truth of Church.



Amen. We need a fuller a revelation of Jesus Christ and not just a specific list of doctrines. But, that doesn't mean that we should push aside vital truths of the gospel which offend people. I agree with Paul Washer that we should keep fellowship with our Arminian and Weslyan brothers. But, I don't think that we should not gently correct a brother who is in error. I don't think Paul Washer is discouraging that either. Let us never forget that the Word of God is the means that God uses to bring a fuller revelation of Himself. The word of God is full of doctrine and if we are going to preach Christ through His Word, we can't help but preach doctrine.

Paul Washer calls himself a 5 point Spurgeonist. I admire that Paul Washer is linked close with Spurgeon's preaching. I don't know specifically what Washer means by 5 points. I don't want to assume anything. But, if we are going to follow Spurgeon's example... The Historic Calvinistic view of God and Man was an definitely an issue that needed to be addressed.

[url=http://abrahamjuliot.blogspot.com/2008/07/charles-spurgeon-quotes-on-calvinism.html]Charles Spurgeon's quotes on Calvinism[/url]

There are many who might say, "Let's not preach doctrine and theology, let's just preach Christ." I will then ask, "Who is Jesus Christ, what has He surely done, what is He surely doing, What will He most surely do in time and eternity? Why has Jesus Christ saved you and why do you love Him?" As soon as one answers these questions, I will reply, "You are declaring doctrine and theology. Paul spent 11 chapters of a whole epistle specifically doing the same thing."

If we are going to preach the gospel, we are commanded to preach the truth about God, the truth about man, and the truth about the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. The gospel of God is not contrary to the truth of God. To depart from preaching and teaching truth, is to depart from preaching the whole counsel of the gospel.

Rolfe Barnard said this, "Today's gospel calls on men to stand up for God; the gospel commands men to bow the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. The two-fold message of evangelism is (1) all flesh is grass, and (2) behold your God! It is the message which strips man of all glory and gives all the glory to Christ. The result of preaching the gospel of God's glory will be a sense of the awful presence of God, breaking the hearts of sinners and bringing them to the feet of Christ for cleansing. Gone will be the voice of the proud sinner who stands in the church, beset on every side by soul winners, debating whether or not he will recognize the Lord and let God save him. Gone will be the voice of the self- righteous sinner who debates whether or not he will let Jesus come into his heart. Instead we will hear broken hearts and contrite spirits cry:"

"Depths of mercy can there be
Mercy still reserved for me?"

-Rolfe Barnard

Rolfe Barnard wrote a sermon on John 6:59-61 called "Does This Offend You?" In this sermon he expounded on these 3 points:

1. Our Lord Jesus Christ Preached the Sovereignty of God

2. Our Lord Jesus Christ Preached the Total Depravity of Man and Man's Inability

3. Our Lord Jesus Christ Preached the Blood Atonement

[url=http://www.sovereign-grace.com/2468.htm]Source[/url]

Sadly many people are offended at the Word of God and the implications of these 3 truths. Is it not also sad if we neglect the duty of correcting those who stray from these truths? Yes, we must correct error in an edifying manner that exalts Jesus Christ. Truth never separated the body Christ or brought disunity among those who love God. Error and confusion brings disunity. The Doctrines of Grace as taught be men like Spurgeon, Whitefield, Matthew Henry, Jonathan Edwards have brought edification to the body of Christ. It is the truth of the gospel that brings true God-centered unity.

It is men like these that had a burden for souls and a burden for God to be glorified in preaching and teaching truth. They got their doctrine from the bible and not from a system of beliefs. Thus, they never strayed from having a burden for souls and a passion for the glory of God. They never preached watered down messages like today's Disney Land gospel. They preached the wrath of God and the duty of repentance.

[url=http://www.sovereign-grace.com/2438.htm]A Burden for Souls[/url] by Rolfe Barnard

[url=http://www.sovereign-grace.com/2384.htm]Turn or Burn[/url] by Rolfe Barnard

[url=http://www.sovereign-grace.com/2378.htm]The sermon that cost a preacher his head[/url] by Rolfe Barnard

Rolfe Barnard wrote another sermon called "Why We Preach the Gospel and Particular Redemption" In the sermon he said this:

"Now will you follow me? The knowledge of being the object of God's eternal love, and the knowledge of being the object of Christ's redeeming death; this knowledge belongs to the assurance of one who has already believed. This knowledge that Christ died for me, that God loves me individually is to be inferred from the fact that one has believed. And it is not to be proposed as a reason why one should believe. These things are just not true. No man can know that God loves him until after he has believed.

Now salvation and assurance must not be separated, but they are not the same. Let me call your attention to two Scriptures – Romans 8:33, which says: "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.-Verse 34: "Who is He that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, Who is even at the right hand of God, Who also maketh intercession for us."

There is assurance. And everybody who is listening to me now, who knows the Lord Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, you can say that, and you can rejoice in it, and the reason you can rejoice in it is you are not trusting in somebody who made salvation possible. You are trusting in God Who justifies; God justifies, so who can condemn? Why, nobody except Christ, because Christ was the One that died, and Christ was the One that was raised, and Christ is the One Who makes intercession for us." -Rolfe Barnard

[url=http://www.sovereign-grace.com/2313.htm]Source[/url]

Paul Washer preached a sermon on this subject also. May God grant grace and strength for Paul Washer to preach it again.

[url=http://media.sermonindex.net/15/SID15076.mp3]Particular Redemption, Mission[/url] by Paul Washer

Charles Spurgeon said this, "A redemption which pays a price, but does not ensure that which is purchased -- a redemption which calls Christ a substitute for the sinner, but yet which allows the person to suffer - is altogether unworthy of our apprehensions of Almighty God. It offers no homage to his wisdom, and does despite to his covenant faithfulness. We could not and would not receive such a travesty of divine truth as that would be. There is no ground for any comfort whatever in it." (Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 49, p. 39)

George Whitefield considered this doctrine an issue when he said this in a letter to John Wesley, "I would hint further, that you unjustly charge the doctrine of reprobation with blasphemy, whereas the doctrine of universal redemption, as you set it forth, is really the highest reproach upon the dignity of the Son of God, and the merit of his blood. Consider whether it be not rather blasphemy to say as you do, "Christ not only died for those that are saved, but also for those that perish." -George Whitefield

I plead with you not to discourage discussion of the doctrines of grace. I agree that we should avoid camp names that bring unnecessary division. The man of God is called to teach the scriptures and he is called to be a man filled with the compassion of Jesus Christ. We are commanded to preach the Word and to follow Paul's example to declare the whole counsel of God.

I used to follow Wesleyan and Anabaptist doctrine for almost 2 years of my beginning days with the Lord. For years I struggled with assurance in the promises of God and I often would fail to preach justification by the imputed everlasting righteousness of Christ. Rather, I would preach as though sinners had the ability to justify themselves by their will and running. Many times I would go through dark seasons of despair because I believed that God's wrath came back upon me in my failures in temptation. I used to listen to Ravenhill a lot and many times after listening to him, I was left in a place feeling condemned with no hope... primarily because of my own lack of Faith in future Grace and secondly because their was a lack of the exaltation of the Sovereign Grace of God in Ravenhill's preaching. I know other godly men who have had the same experiences. Ravenhill has been a blessing on his exhortations to pray. But, we will not be able to battle the real sin behind prayerlessness if we are not directed to trust in the future promises of God's Grace. Unbelief in the promises of God always results in a lack of God-centered prayer.

John Wesley Wrote a letter to His brother Charles about his lack of assurance. It was written nearly 28 years after John Wesley's conversion.

John Wesley wrote, “In one of my last [letters] I was saying that I do not feel the wrath of God abiding on me; nor can I believe it does. And yet (this is the mystery), I do not love God. I never did. Therefore I never believed, in the Christian sense of the word. Therefore I am only an honest heathen … And yet, to be so employed of God! And so hedged in that I can neither get forward nor backward! Surely there was never such an instance before, from the beginning of the world! If I ever have had that faith, it would not be so strange. But I never had any other evidence of the eternal or invisible world than I have now; and that is none at all, unless such as faintly shines from reason’s glimmering ray. I have no direct witness (I do not say, that I am a child of God, but) of anything invisible or eternal.
...“And yet I dare not preach otherwise than I do, either concerning faith, or love, or justification, or perfection. And yet I find rather an increase than a decrease of zeal for the whole work of God and every part of it. I am borne along, I know not how, that I can’t stand still. I want all the world to come to what I do not know.” (Quoted in Stephen Tomkins, 2003, John Wesley: A Biography, Eerdmans, p. 168.)

In addition to this Ravehill and others have highly recommended learning from Charles Finney. Many have taken heed to these books and time will only tell of the result of this.

Finney himself stated this,
"I was often instrumental in bringing Christians under great conviction, and into a state of temporary repentance and faith . . . . [But] falling short of urging them up to a point, where they would become so acquainted with Christ as to abide in Him, they would of course soon relapse into their former state" [cited in B. B. Warfield, Studies in Perfectionism, 2 vols. (New York: Oxford, 1932), 2:24].

One of Finney's contemporaries registered a similar assessment, but more bluntly:

During ten years, hundreds, and perhaps thousands, were annually reported to be converted on all hands; but now it is admitted, that real converts are comparatively few. It is declared, even by [Finney] himself, that "the great body of them are a disgrace to religion"[cited in Warfield, 2:23].

B. B. Warfield cited the testimony of Asa Mahan, one of Finney's close associates,

...who tells us—to put it briefly—that everyone who was concerned in these revivals suffered a sad subsequent lapse: the people were left like a dead coal which could not be reignited; the pastors were shorn of all their spiritual power; and the evangelists—"among them all," he says, "and I was personally acquainted with nearly every one of them—I cannot recall a single man, brother Finney and father Nash excepted, who did not after a few years lose his unction, and become equally disqualified for the office of evangelist and that of pastor."
Thus the great "Western Revivals" ran out into disaster. . . . Over and over again, when he proposed to revisit one of the churches, delegations were sent him or other means used, to prevent what was thought of as an affliction. . . . Even after a generation had passed by, these burnt children had no liking for the fire [Warfield, 2:26-28].

-Abraham


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Abraham Juliot

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 Re: "Calvinism Is Not The Issue!" - Paul Washer

I appreciate this post

This quote sticks out to me:

What the Arminian wants to do is to arouse man's activity: what we want to do is to kill it once for all - to show him that he is lost and ruined, and that his activities are not now at all equal to the work of conversion; that he must look upward. They seek to make the man stand up: we seek to bring him down, and make him feel that there he lies in the hand of God, and that his business is to submit himself to God, and cry aloud, 'Lord, save, or we perish.' We hold that man is never so near grace as when he begins to feel he can do nothing at all. When he says, 'I can pray, I can believe, I can do this, and I can do the other,' marks of self-sufficiency and arrogance are on his brow. -C. H. Spurgeon


I can't put myself in either a Calvinist or Arminian basket becase of this type of reality. I am encouraged to continue declaring God's nature, man's depravity, so I can point like John the Baptist "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world"

Something I would like to advice on how to obey/repeat is Luke 24:47 and Acts 26:20 where the disciples and Paul are commanded to preach repentance and to call people to bear fruit in keeping with repentance. How do we hold this tension with what has been stated?


Cheers,

Mikey


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Mikey

 2009/1/3 4:04Profile
RobertW
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 Re:

Quote:
Greg's:
The reformation only brought back "some" truths to the Church that were lost. We need a much more fuller revelation of the truth of Church.



It is interesting how that God began this work with the introduction of the scriptures to the common people. Since that time the churches have been adding long standing truths back into the list of things they are [u]willing[/u] to believe God for. Often these restorations have come at a great stir.

The genuine born again experience seems to have dominated the last few years. Decision-ism has been challenged.

It seems to me that God is now calling us to genuine church life and a willingness to believe that when we gather He is in the midst of us.




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