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does Dave believe you should cut out giving/tithing while paying off your debts?

No, absolutely not. (altho, in my opinion the tithe is not a NT teaching anyway...)


 2008/12/23 12:35

Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797

 Re: Dave Ramsey & Financial Peace University

For some reason, God began very early teaching me about Himself through money. As I think about it, I learned things about prayer and how to recognize His will and voice even. Here are some things to settle early on.

Do you believe that everything you have has been given to you? Wonderful lessons here.

Stewardship: Are you a steward or are you not? More wonderful lessons here. Settles the “emergency fund” question.

The “tithing” question: 2 Cor 8: 5 - And [this they did], not as we hoped, [b]but first gave their own selves to the Lord[/b], and unto us by the will of God. This is a great first things first principle.

Is there a need to pick one of these two financial programs if they are both biblical? Listen to both. Maybe one will emerge or the Spirit of God in you will use the Word of God in both. The point is God speaks on this subject and we do well to listen and follow.

I do know Crown (Christian Financial Concepts) has existed for over 20 years. Their counseling is free. Those that teach have public testimonies of being saved and called to teach God’s Word. God has used them in saving people. I have never found their grasp of the financial condition of America wrong. I doubt any born-again Christian could have listened to their radio program for six months and continued in debt or to handle money the way the world teaches.

The Joseph reference does not support, in general, amassing an emergency saving fund. It was a [u]revealed[/u] pending “emergency” demonstrating other principles, don’t you think? The “never an adjustable mortgage” is great worldly wisdom if you have not heard from God. I only point this out because many times the Word of God and the Spirit of God direct oppositely from what the world has identified as profitable. For example, I never could understand the worldly reasoning that giving a bank $1000.00 of interest so you can get $400.00 back through itemized tax deductions was always a smart idea and a reason to keep your equity low (a $600.00 negative transaction).

A related post that "happens to be made concurrently" with this thread:
[url= ]counsel of the wicked by Arthur Pink [/url]

 2008/12/23 21:46Profile

 Re: MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!

The more money you have the more you can give away.........someday.

 2008/12/25 17:13

Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764



article, article Paul Proctor wrote concerning a caller into the Dave Ramsey show

 2008/12/25 18:41Profile

Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427

 Re: Dave Ramsey & Financial Peace University

My wife and I just got done doing FPU two months ago. It was rather resourceful for the both of us. I would highly recommend this to anyone. I think his principles were well thought out and solid.


 2008/12/25 19:21Profile

Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


I don't completely agree with Dave Ramsey on a lot...but he does offer some valuable tools and methods to get out of debt. Even if those ideas are old methods. I actually prefer [url=]Crown.Org[/url]. To me they seem to be better doctrinally sound and full of grace and compassion in dealing with people.

Lets all get out of debt!! :-)

 2008/12/25 20:21Profile

Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


He does not recommend a 30 yr mortgage because your return takes too long. But on a 15 year you pay less interest, and you realize equity very quickly because you're paying down the principle faster whily the value of your house rises.

Most of us can't afford a 15 year mortgage unless you put a lot of money down or you buy much less. However I have a 30yr fixed and if I just pay one extra payment a year or even just $50 a month. I would shorten my length of the load about 5-6 years! What would happen if I paid more each year...bonuses...income tax? Debt free on the house is smelling pretty good and very realistic.

What is exciting to me, is that hear from so many other believers speaking about getting out of debt, living within there means! Thats awesome..sounds to me that the Lord is doing a mighty work.

 2008/12/25 20:30Profile

Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC


So far as I have been exposed to Dave Ramsey, I think he seems pretty sound. Of course, I don't believe tithing is something put upon those of us under the New Covenant, which I know Dave is a proponent of. Indeed, he recommends everybody give 10-15% of their income to charity in his financial software program. In reality though, most of what he says is pretty much like what many others have said on here: simply common sense. It's practical down to earth advise.

Dave spares no punches, is straight up, and isn't afraid to "tell it like it is," but I believe he does so in the proper spirit. He really does seem to be concerned with people's personal finances, and you can tell he's really excited about what he does. Though he charges for many of his materials (though I have seen on his tv show/radio program that he covers the same things mentioned in his materials), he does so at a reasonable rate, gives you high quality and well thought out material, and has a rather loose copyright policy (he says you can freely share his material so long as you aren't trying to profit from it).

Personally, I find him rather inspiring and uplifting. He admits none of his material is new, and frequently drops references to and others. But, I think the way he has packaged his teachings is in a rather fresh manner. He's got me really excited about not using debt as a "tool" in my life, saving up $1,000 for an emergency fund, and snowballing my way out of debt. Granted, I am not exactly following his "baby steps" in perfect order, as I am doing some overlap with a small monthly investment plan. But as it stands, and the present rate, according to Dave's software, I will be debt free in 3.5 years. That assumes, of course, nothing slips and breaks that prevents such from happening e.g. job loss.

But as it stands right now, I feel pretty excited about paying my bills. No more does it feel like a dread. I have a working budget and a plan. I feel debt free already. I am believing the Lord to enable me to live by my budget every month, and faithfully pay off my bills. I don't believe it's God's will for me to be in debt anymore. I'm sick and tired of debt. I don't want anything to do with it anymore.

Jimmy H

 2008/12/25 23:29Profile

Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164


But as it stands right now, I feel pretty excited about paying my bills. No more does it feel like a dread. I have a working budget and a plan. I feel debt free already. I am believing the Lord to enable me to live by my budget every month, and faithfully pay off my bills. I don't believe it's God's will for me to be in debt anymore. I'm sick and tired of debt. I don't want anything to do with it anymore.

That's great. That's an encouraging testimony to me.

Josh Parsley

 2008/12/26 13:00Profile

Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Dave Ramsey & Financial Peace University

There are a few Proverbs and other Scripture concerning the error and sin of debt and usury. I just recently read such an example from a brief biography of C.H. Spurgeon, out of "All of Grace":

"Back with his parents, he grew up in a home with strong Puritan teachings and faithful, restrained lives to match. There was no known hypocrisy in his parents' lives. And the Spurgeons did not allow it in their offspring. By outward standards, he and his siblings were exemplary children.
Little Charles once lost his pencil and decided to buy one at the store on credit. When his father found out, he gave him a lecture on the sins of debt that he never forgot.

'I was marched off to the shop like a deserter marching into barracks, crying bitterly all down the street and feeling dreadfully ashamed, because I thought everybody knew I was in debt. The farthing was paid amid solemn warnings, and the poor debtor was set free like a bird out of a cage.'"

Likewise, my father has always warned me against credit cards saying, "if you can't pay in full, you don't need it." Good advice. There are a very few exceptions but excellent practical advice.

In regards to tithing, the 10% is according to the law contained in ordinances. The law of faith says however, to be cliche, "it all belongs to God." Therefore, give as each one has need.

To be wise in this manner of tithing and offerings, for those who are seriously indebt, if I may, offer two bits of advice:
1) reform your lifestyle.
2) you are the one who has need, others ought to be giving to you, yet this does not excuse you from the work of service (ministry).

Personally, I slept at home for around 3 years, or so, on an air-mattress and a futon. I would still be doing so if my parent's hadn't interfered and bought me a new mattress.
Got to love parents, that's what they are there for ;-)

Now obviously, this can be mischievous (ie. those who are living beyond their means because they would spend themselves on the lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eyes, and the pride of life and meanwhile desiring the charitable to pick up their lack, so they may continue in comforts). So there needs to be the consideration as to whether or not those things which are causing the financial burden ought better to be lost. And then, so what? you lost a house, a car, etc. Are you living (and trusting) for retirement or the providence of God in Christ? Better to die homeless than in hell if the cares of this world should choke the life out of your spirits. It is amazing to consider "how impossible it is to live without" until I see how many people indeed live well enough without. All of those "inconveniences" are only inconvenient to those who are spoiled with much of this world. And besides, if the church is quickened unto unity in the Spirit and evangelical works they will be there to bear the burden with you and your family. Once either 1) the debt is paid or 2) the property is removed then continue again in giving of yourself and of your substance to those in need, just as Christ and His church has so given to each of us. Again an important note on this, this does not give the leeway for those indebt for the withholding of one's self from those in need. And likewise, the "reform your lifestyle" is of utmost necessity even for those who are not presently in debt.

It would appear as though Dave Ramsey and these other ministries mentioned are giving sound advice on being content with "food and raiment" and how to handle the bills however even greater is when we actually heed such advice and live as missionaries, as sojourners in a strange land with eager expectation, waiting patiently, not for a house or retirement or city built by man but for an eternal dwelling established in the heavens by God.
Honestly, I do not disagree with keeping a savings, but we may fairly well measure your spiritual life by the manner in which you engage your money. In this regard, speaking of Charles Spurgeon, he was giving some 80% of his own income in tithes and offering for the purposes of ministry. And similar testimonies may be added of many renowned servants of God.
In summary, if you have need then the church ought to be giving to you. All of this "give more to the church and that is how we shall live by faith to overcome this financial crisis" is nonsense! If you tithe 10%, or more, you shall be exactly 10%, or more, poorer. There is no such promise as sowing money to reap more money. Just thinking about this is giving me the urge to preach it up but I will relent; besides, I am preaching to the choir here :-P


 2008/12/26 19:52Profile

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