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pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:

Cris wrote:

Quote:
Is it possible that President Bush lied about what he believes in regard to eternal life? I know this sounds like a stretch…but I have heard of people who hid the truth of God’s Word beneath a “bushel” (so to speak) in an effort to not offend someone…or to separate their actual beliefs from a divisive argument. What would have been the end result if President Bush would have said the truth of the matter? What if he said, “Well, I believe that there is only one way to Heaven (Jesus), and everyone else is damned to Hell?” For one thing, Western stability in the Middle East would probably have been compromised (to say the least). Is it possible that President Bush was tempted to “smooth” things over with nations that are held captive by aggressive religions (like Islam)? He is probably keenly aware that Islamists will riot over a cartoon of Muhammad. He probably thought about how the media would LOVE to catch him “disrespecting” the religion of Islam. Is it possible that the President actually lied in order to prevent bloodshed over what he might really believe to be truth?



If this be the case, what of those souls who would not seek the truth because of this lie?

Would it then be OK to lie in this manner to protect your loved ones from harm and possibly mislead souls into hell?

What is more important, a lie to protect lives here now, or the truth to keep souls from entering into everlasting damnation?

Seems you make some good arguments for why Christians should stay out of the politics of this world, Cris?

In His Love
pastorfrin

 2008/12/19 21:14Profile









 Re:

I think the early church would be turning in their graves if they had to listen to some of the verbal gymnastics that go on today. This would be the families that took their place in middle of the areana and waited for the lions to come, rather than deny the truth of Jesus and the one true God. There can never be a good enough reason to deny the one true God, and millions of saints have died proving that point.........Frank

 2008/12/19 21:22
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi pastorfrin...

No, it wouldn't make it right at all. But it would also mean that those who made certain claims about the President were wrong too.

Quote:
Seems you make some good arguments for why Christians should stay out of the politics of this world, Cris?

Voting is not a matter of [i]politics[/i] or allegiance with the world. It is a matter of righteousness...and aligning our hopes with the goodness of God. No, I don't think we can legislate righteousness or faith into the nation...but I hope to prevent the legislation of UNrighteousness too.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/12/19 21:26Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Frank...

Quote:
I think the early church would be turning in their graves if they had to listen to some of the verbal gymnastics that go on today.

Could you explain what you mean by this...or who/what comments you are referring to?

Yes, I don't think that it is good to deny the one true God. In this sense, this is NOT a defense of the words of President Bush. However, I also think that it is JUST AS EVIL to publicly judge a heart or the spiritual condition of a person when you really don't know the full truth of the matter.

Please do not mistake my posts as a defense of President Bush or his words. Rather, I simply think that we need to be VERY CAREFUL when spewing rhetoric that supposes to know things (such as the condition of a heart) that God does not share with other men. Is President Bush saved? Like I said, I have no idea. His words would indicate yes and no (depending on which testimony you hear). Yet I think that this is not the time or place to make such declarations that are not entirely clear.

Make no mistake: The President's words were not right in the least. Even if he was simply trying to "walk on eggshells" around very angry Islamists who would take out their hate upon his words, he should not have said them. I hope that he doesn't really believe his own words. Yet this is not the time to take our judgment beyond his words and target him or his spiritual condition. That is the entire reason behind my problems with some of the posts in this thread.

Brother, I have tried to explain this in response to your posts and PMs...but you keep thinking that I am inventing a "straw man" argument. This is not a straw man. To be clear: I don't know about the President's spiritual condition. My faith, hope and trust does not rest with him. I did not vote for him to be Christian-in-Chief or a savior of America. I just thought that he was the better of the choices in regards to issues of righteousness in our nation. If he could have ran for election in 2008, I probably would have voted for him again -- not because he is perfect (or a supposed Christian), but because he is a better choice than those who publicly parade their hopes for unrighteousness.

I hope that this is clear enough.


_________________
Christopher

 2008/12/19 21:36Profile









 Re:

Hi Chris

I dont think my last post needs any explaining. Its just a statement to which one could either agree or disagree. Most of my hereos can be found in Hebrews 11 or in Foxes book of Martyrs. They gave their lives for the Truth, they ascended the steps of the gallows for the truth, they were tied and burned to stakes for the truth, they knelt down naked in the middle of frozen lakes because they refused to acknowledge a Roman leader as "a," god. Its not complicated Chris, everyone can understand it. Not everything relates back to President Bush, these are just universal Christian Truths that have held for 2000 years against tyrants and evil-doers. And the Church of Christ will continue them until the Lord comes back, whether they are great men of power or humble men.......brother Frank

 2008/12/19 22:00
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Quote:

appolus wrote:
Most of my hereos can be found in Hebrews 11 or in Foxes book of Martyrs. They gave their lives for the Truth, they ascended the steps of the gallows for the truth, [b]they were tied and burned to stakes for the truth,[/b] they knelt down naked in the middle of frozen lakes because they [b][u]refused[/u][/b] to acknowledge a Roman leader as [u][b]"a," god.[/u][/b]



Brother Frank, what you wrote is with utter importance. May we [b]never[/b] forget that. May we never forget the history and the cloud of witnesses. There's coming a day and it is already here when we also will need to pay the price. Burned, frozen, tortured.

Brother Frank, Pastorfrin, Jeff and others who feel the same, be encouraged brothers, don't be afraid, we [b]must[/b] all together too continue in the faith and in the truth of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Brother Frank, here is why I made bold (above) some of the words of your post:


[b][url=http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=lk5PKxglj88]-last question - god?-which-god?[/url]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=EZRjzeXuzhY]-'holy' father - good-man-humble-servant-of'god'-defence-of-
fundamental-truths[/url][/b]

Is there anyone who will give the number of our brothers and sisters whose blood was shed, because [b]they refused to acknowledge this[/b]?

It is coming brethren, again. This is just the beginning, making the path. Be encouraged with these Scriptures:

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Heb 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Your brother, from the other side of the world.

 2008/12/19 22:38Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Frank...

Actually, your statement does need explaining. It seems that it is directed at anyone who disagrees with your opinion of the matter. Would you appreciate it if I treated your posts (which I agree with on the surface, but not in the application) with the same bit of "spiritualized" fervor? You have said a great many things in these sort of threads (and in your PMs to me)...but they all seem to treat anyone who disagrees with your opinion as though we aren't "spiritual enough" to understand the truth in such matters. Brother, some of us have sought this out. Some of us have prayed about such matters (such as voting...and who to vote for).

Brother, your heroes are my heroes. Those believers who were tortured for the faith have provided a wonderful example for which I pray that I might attain. Yet I seriously doubt that the early church would "turn in their graves" over some of the things that I wrote (if it was, as it appeared, directed at what I wrote). I can't be more clear: I agree with what you have ascertained about the specific words of the President. They were wrong. Yet I wouldn't go any further.

This, too, is not "complicated." There are those of us who feel the "liberty" in Christ to vote. No one should suppose that we have bowed our knee to Baal...or to the systems of this world. Again, this does not mean that we have placed our faith, hope and trust in this world. Far from it! I agree: This topic transcends the initial issue regarding the words of the President. It almost always boils down to accusations (or quiet implications) that those of us who voted for this man (or simply voted at all) were somehow not "spiritual" enough or "mature" enough to "realize" that we should not have done so. Yet many of us not only felt the liberty...but felt a very spiritual need to do so (and one that we felt was Scripturally sound).

Quote:
...these are just universal Christian Truths that have held for 2000 years against tyrants and evil-doers. And the Church of Christ will continue them until the Lord comes back, whether they are great men of power or humble men.

Yet I don't think that the early martyrs responded to Caesar the way that some believers have publicly responded to the President. This is the issue I have with this entire thread: Is it necessary to go further than just examining the President's words to pretending as if we somehow KNOW his motives...or worse, his eternal condition? If you read back to the first few posts in this thread (and through some of the other threads about the President), it seems like some people almost seem smug in presenting their "revelation" about the President. It might not be how such believers really feel...but it does come across that way (even after reading them several times).

Shouldn't ALL of our words be salted with the grace of God...and a knowledge that we aren't perfect yet...so our perspectives might not be either? I was speaking with a person who stopped visiting this website last year. This person was deeply hurt by a few of the brethren who seemingly acted as though they held a monopoly on truth...and that the opinions of others just didn't matter (since they could evidently hear God so "clearly"). I apologized for this...because I know that I have been so "certain" about things that I just shouldn't have vocalized as such (especially since I later discovered that I was wrong...or just slightly off). In fact, I know quite a few people here (myself included) who aren't the same people we were just a few years ago. I think that it is dangerous when we convey the attitude that we have "arrived" and have somehow risen above our flawed humanity.

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2008/12/20 0:40Profile









 Re:

Hi Chris

I will let my statements stand alone. If you want to read anything else into them or guess what is in my heart, then you would probably be guilty of what you have accused several of the brothers of doing. I think most people know me well enough to know that if I had something to say to you directly brother, I would say it. Truth be told Chris, I think that it would not be fruitful. The last couple of statements that I have made on this thread are truths that would be embraced by most Christians and supercede whether it was right or wrong for you to vote or whether you had a blind faith in President Bush. You are right, we cannot know what was in your heart when you voted, nor can we know what is in the heart of the President, but what we do know is that "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks." So, we can know what a man says and we can judge that against Scripture........brother Frank

 2008/12/20 1:21
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Frank...

Well enough. I will also let my statements stand alone too.

But, dear brother, I am not trying to "read into" your comments (the Lord knows that this has happened to me many times), but I just thought that there was a reason for them that just wasn't directly touched upon. There is a double-meaning behind some of the sayings (at least, it seems that way). What were you trying to say? You might think that it was "clear" -- but it was not. Even after saying that you would be frank with what you think...you still close with a statement that seemingly is used to indict the President (due to his words in this interview). It just seemed like you meandered from what is abundantly clear (the president's words were wrong), but left for no alternative perspective (like, for instance, they were simply a poor choice of words...or a statement that doesn't truly reflect what he believes).

Anyway...I think that it is time to move on. I don't pretend to know what the rationale behind your initial posts might have been...but those posts weren't clear to some of us. If anything, I took issue with the tone in which your views of the President seemed to be expressed. I still don't understand just why we should be discussing this at great length in the first place. We can certain judge that the President's words were, at best, flat wrong. But I feel that we should have just left it there...and not appeared to have gloated in what some have voice in the past to be "evidence" of his eternal, spiritual condition.

We can all agree to pray for this man. If he knows the Lord...that he would know Him in a much more real and intimate way. If he doesn't know Him, that he would meet Him. I just don't think that it is fruitful to use words or tones that border on slander...simply because we heard a couple of interviews by which we feel secure enough to determine his spiritual condition. I'm not saying that this is characteristic of you or your thoughts, just a tone that seemed to be expressed by this thread.


_________________
Christopher

 2008/12/20 2:09Profile









 Re:

The Scriptures are unambiguous in this matter: he who denies that Jesus is the Christ is Antichrist. Saying that "Jesus Christ is a messiah but there also are other paths to salvation (the Muslim, the Buddhist, etc.)" means you are talking about another Jesus, not the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the spirit of the Antichrist at work in President Bush, for no man moved by the HOLY SPIRIT can say such a blasphemous thing. "And he who doesn't have the Spirit of Christ is none of His." A good tree cannot bear bad fruit. But from a bad tree you can certainly expect bad fruit.

The President may truly consider himself to be Christian (although I can doubt even that on some accounts), but his "Christianity", no matter whether its profession is genuine or pretended, is of another type. A partial truth is a lie.

 2008/12/20 8:49





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