_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

The outside world view of America is we are Christian. I believe America is blessed because the founders acknowledged God. We are also probably the answer to some godly people's prayers, praise God for that. Of course, those of us who live in America know there is much disobedience and rebellion to God. I am grateful God is blessing this nation, but if the "christian" church especially, is going to allow rebellion and forsake God's ways to please men rather than God, He is probably going to allow this country to get what it wants, and sin only brings death. The consequences will probably get much than it is right now, we could lose so much if we, His children, continue to dishonor Him. We need only look under the surface at the other nations and see the consequences of rebellion against God: poverty, unbelievable crime, diseases rampant, natural disasters, hopelessness, etc. Terrorism can happen again, Reader's Digest warned Americans hostile murderous terrorists were targeting Americans several years before Sept. 11. If we are going to kick God out or call ourselves His children and live like the devil, He's not going to continue to protect us as a nation. I believe He will protect His children individually as He did with Lot when He burned Sodom and Gomorrah, but the nation as a whole could get the punishment its deeds deserve. I pray the Christians will be faithful and truthful to God and seek to please God rather than man. 'Fear Him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him." Jesus words in Luke 12:5. So many churches in America that claim to be Christian are in sorry shape and not bearing much good fruit. Lord Jesus, please forgive us, bring us to repentance, draw us to You, and thrust forth laborers into the harvest fields. Your will be done. Amen.

_________________
Jina

gtenigma wrote:

_________________
Jeff Marshalek

i believe America to still be a Christian nation ... Apostate, yes .. Prodigal, yes ... Back slidden, yes ... But there's still hope ...

About a year and a half ago the Lord took me thru a study of the history of wealth in America, and why He was able to bless this nation due to the yoke of
Puritanism that once constrained outright mercenary commerialism and mercantilism ...

He did so by taking me thru the life of J.D. Rockefeller Sr., whom history has always painted as a money grubbing bad guy ... But turns out that JDR was a devout, pius, Baptist Christian, who tithed from the first 15 cents he ever made, who attended prayer meeting and Sunday services all his life, who believed that it was God who called him to such wealth, who taught Sunday school for 43 years, who was philanthropic beyond belief, and who during the American market crash of the late 1800's pledged up to half his wealth to our government .. Very interesting reading on how many of the great wealthy Americans of the guilded age were influenced, if not like JDR outright controled, by their Puritan upbringing as to the meaning of and handling of wealth ...

Today, needless to say, we're certainly not governed by Puritanism in anything anymore ... We're now in the free fall of unrestrained, impure, unrepentant, G-R-E-E-D ... Americans, and therefore America, will pretty much do whatever it takes to get $$$ ...

If anyone's interested i hope you find these links insightful into how we've went from $$$ responsibility, to $$$ madness ...


http://www.raken.com/american_wealth/manor_lords/manor_lords1.asp

http://www.humboldt.edu/~go1/hist111/unit2empire.html

http://www.socialstudieshelp.com/Lesson_58_Notes.htm

i've been having a running discussion with a young man on my job, since the election, regarding whether America is in fact a "Christian nation", and if the founding fathers were in fact Christians themselves ...

Now i must admit that until today i was sure that America was a "Christian nation", and that the founding fathers were in deed Christians, mainly because that's what i've been assured of by so many modern day evangelical expositors, and because of Washington's prayers i myself have read with my own eyes at the chapel in Valley Forge State Park, but i'm not so sure about those beliefs anymore ...

i prayed a little prayer at lunch time and asked Holy Spirit to guide me to the truth for i was most dogmatic to my co-workers accusations the a great majority of the founding fathers were Deist, and so began to plug in some key phrases that brought me to these sites ...

SITE #1:
WERE THE FOUNDING FATHERS CHRISTIANS?
http://www.gospelcom.net/watkins/foundingfathers.htm

From this site i gleaned that according to the Apostles Creed definition of Christianity one cannot come to the conclusion that the founding Fathers, especially those in leadership positions, were quote-unquote Christians ... Seems that ole George Washington started real good in his actual use of the name of Jesus Christ in his prayers, but as he got older that ceased ...

I already knew Jefferson was a Deist (and a man i'd come to have no respect for), but I had no idea how close many of the others were ... I'm sure that there were some of the original fathers and signers of the Declaration who were in fact Christians, but the leaders do in fact seem to lean heavily toward Deism ... Interesting ...

i'm glad to have been spurred on to find this out, for now i can better grasp how the founding fathers, and others along the way, could justify slavery and the systematic slaughter of the Indian, makes much more sense to me, because that certainly wasn't Christ-like, and i'd previously just chalked it up to a certain (huge) carnality in their Christian practice ... It's made me wonder can a politician truly be a follower of Christ, when it seems one has to sell ones soul to the devil when it comes to doing whats best for the State? ... i really cannot allow myself to be this judgmental to the men who've held, and do now hold, the Presidential office, because i know that God has to either allow or elect some fellow human to do so, and i know that even in His nation of Israel no one, not even David who was a man after His own heart, ever got it perfect ... So i leave the heart reading up to God, and just pray for the poor guy that has to helm a government ...

Then i went to another site that listed the prayers of a few Presidents in regards America ...

Prayers of the Presidents
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/159/story_15960_1.html

Washington and Jefferson mentioned Jesus Christ by name ... In my estimation Washington may have been sincere at the time, but Jefferson i believe had more of a Machiavellian reason for doing so, then those following in subsequent years only mentioned God, Providence, etc, for it has become increasingly enathema for a President to actually say the name of Jesus Christ ...

Then i was introduced to this site ... The following is an excerpt from ...

Our Godless Constitution
http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20050221&s=allen

... and i post it simply for it's historical value of some of the founding fathers, and not for the
opening jab at present President Bush, or any modern evangelical belief that America is in fact a Christian nation, but one might think differently after reading ...

QUOTE:

Tom Paine, a polemicist rather than a politician, could afford to be perfectly honest about his religious beliefs, which were baldly deist in the tradition of Voltaire: "I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.... I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church." This is how he opened The Age of Reason, his virulent attack on Christianity. In it he railed against the "obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness" of the Old Testament, "a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." The New Testament is less brutalizing but more absurd, the story of Christ's divine genesis a "fable, which for absurdity and extravagance is not exceeded by any thing that is to be found in the mythology of the ancients." He held the idea of the Resurrection in especial ridicule: Indeed, "the wretched contrivance with which this latter part is told, exceeds every thing that went before it." Paine was careful to contrast the tortuous twists of theology with the pure clarity of deism. "The true deist has but one Deity; and his religion consists in contemplating the power, wisdom, and benignity of the Deity in his works, and in endeavoring to imitate him in every thing moral, scientifical, and mechanical."

Paine's rhetoric was so fervent that he was inevitably branded an atheist. Men like Franklin, Adams and Jefferson could not risk being tarred with that brush, and in fact Jefferson got into a good deal of trouble for continuing his friendship with Paine and entertaining him at Monticello. These statesmen had to be far more circumspect than the turbulent Paine, yet if we examine their beliefs it is all but impossible to see just how theirs differed from his.

Franklin was the oldest of the Founding Fathers. He was also the most worldly and sophisticated, and was well aware of the Machiavellian principle that if one aspires to influence the masses, one must at least profess religious sentiments.

Of course all these men knew, as all modern presidential candidates know, that to admit to theological skepticism is political suicide. During Jefferson's presidency a friend observed him on his way to church, carrying a large prayer book. "You going to church, Mr. J," remarked the friend. "You do not believe a word in it." Jefferson didn't exactly deny the charge. "Sir," he replied, "no nation has ever yet existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I as chief Magistrate of this nation am bound to give it the sanction of my example. Good morning Sir."

Like Jefferson, every recent President has understood the necessity of at least paying lip service to the piety of most American voters. All of our leaders, Democrat and Republican, have attended church, and have made very sure they are seen to do so. But there is a difference between offering this gesture of respect for majority beliefs and manipulating and pandering to the bigotry, prejudice and millennial fantasies of Christian extremists. Though for public consumption the Founding Fathers identified themselves as Christians, they were, at least by today's standards, remarkably honest about their misgivings when it came to theological doctrine, and religion in general came very low on the list of their concerns and priorities--always excepting, that is, their determination to keep the new nation free from bondage to its rule.

You may want to read the whole thing by clicking on this link ...

Our Godless Constitution
http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20050221&s=allen

... for in doing so you will have read that it was only "The Puritans" (that remnant) who were the thorns in the flesh towards the anti-christ like policies of the political leadership, while the rest of the so called Christian citizentry of America went on with whatever was best for their State ...

i've come to the conclusion that America is not in fact a "Christian nation", but a nation that just happens to be inhabited by a lot of (proclaimed) "Christians", and that not only has our number been lessening but most assuredly our influence as salt and light in the land ... America aint nothing but another big ole slab of meat hanging on God's rack of allowed world powers, gone rancid because we Christians have not only lost our savor as the salt that keeps it from going rancid, but have even escalated America's demise by dimming way down our light and leaving her in a darkened gloom ... The heathens raging ain't what's wrong with America, it's our own luke warmness in Christ ... We the Church of Jesus Christ are supposed to be the collective watchman on the wall, but we're all way to busy reveling with the heathen in America's sins of greed for wealth and over stimulation of the senses ... And we wonder why scripture says that judgment begins first with the Church of Christ (House of the Lord) ...

If America is in fact a democracy ruled by the majority, and the majority claim to be Christian, but we've become a fat, bloated, unrepentanly immoral, unethical, financially leveraged out, way past fiscal insanity, over credit extended nation ... Whose fault is it? ...

American saints, we've got so much blood on our hands!!! ...

During the 1840's and 50's in California, Masonic Temples popped up everywhere in gold country. We visited some of the famous gold rush towns last year. In one of the Masonic Lodges that is now a museum, I saw a letter that George Washington wrote that stated he was the head of the Virginia Lodge. If one looks to the architecture of Washington D.C., and the way the city was planned out, one will see that the design is of Masonic origin.

I recently saw, but have not read, that Finney wrote a book warning of the Masonic influence of his time. These were all Deist as Brother Rahman has pointed out in the previous post.

John 7:7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.

The Deist deny Christ, and Scripture is very clear on this matter. What is not clear is what is the condition of our faith? Do we have faith in the world and Christ at the same time?

In Christ
jeff

_________________
Jeff Marshalek

Brother Jeff you wrote:

"The Deist deny Christ, and Scripture is very clear on this matter. What is not clear is what is the condition of our faith? Do we have faith in the world and Christ at the same time"?


Hmmmmmm .... Brother Jeff i think it's all to clear ... There are a great many folk in this country today who for all intensive purposes are Deist, they want to acknowledge a Father but discard the Son, and why? ... Because Jesus is God incarnate in the flesh who came down here to give us ensample of how we are to govern our lives, and walk on this earth in regards our fellowship with the Father, and our fellow man ... Jesus is to real for the Deist, the Father they can abstract as Providence, and the Divine Architect, and such ... They are the hell spawn that have a form of godly devotion, but deny (Jesus) the power thereof ...

Now as for we believers that acknowledge Christ as Lord ... What is the condition of our faith? ... Lukewarm ... Do we have faith in the world and Christ at the same time? ... i personally find that obviously so ... That's why i asked earlier ...

"If America is in fact a democracy ruled by the majority, and the majority claim to be Christian, but we've become a fat, bloated, unrepentanly immoral, unethical, financially leveraged out, way past fiscal insanity, over credit extended society ... Whose fault is it? ...

As far as i can estimate by my own Christian peers we're as leveraged out, living way past our means, as the unsaved American ... Thank God He pulled my coat tail about five years ago to start downsizing my debt, but there are only a handful of saints i know doing this ... Bottom line is the Church of Jesus Christ in America is all caught up in the American Scheme, for it is no longer a dream but a soon to all fall down nightmare of a Ponzi scheme ... i am so amazed at how much Holy Spirit has altered my view of America in the past three months alone ... i used to see this nation as a blessed land, but as the physical building ain't the church (it's the people) so is American not the nation (it's the people) ... If in fact God has shed His light on America it because at one point in time the American people had enough of His presence (salt and light) amongst them that it enabled Him to do so, i really don't think that's the case anymore ... Little light, no salty savor, not the formula to maintaining God's gracious favor"!

Br. Rahman wrote:

_________________
Jeff Marshalek

I feel like we're a shadow of the Nation of old Israel.

And I [b][i]don't[/b][/i] mean that in a good way.

When I think of Israel of old, I think about a nation of foolishness. They knew God and His power so directly and in a profund way, yet they strayed from Him repeatedly...

were brought back by a loving hand...

and strayed away again...

and again...
and again...
and again...

In reading Israel's history I always have to wonder "How could they be so flighty???"

Then I took a look at our own nation. We've done the same thing they did. Now keep in mind, that America's only been around for 226 years or so...a fraction of the time in Israel's history, yet in those short years we've had we've had our first (and probably last) straying away.

Was America once a Godly, righteous nation? I would say, probably YES. We had our sins back in the time (discrimination, slavery, etc.) but as a general rule, we worshiped the Lord unashamed, brought our children up in in his nurture and admonition, and [b]ESCHEWED FALSE GODS AND THOSE WHO WORSHIPPED THEM![/b]

Now, like Israel of old, we've strayed...in fact, we've strayed far worse than Israel did. Their primary sin usually came from their letting false gods and those who worshipped them into power and general influence...

which we as a country have done. They sweep away our God and put theirs in His place. But we've done so much worse than Israel is recorded doing in leaving the natural order of things in so many ways.

Are we a Christian nation today?

Polls will say yes.

But they're lying. Most people will identify themselves as 'Christian' when asked, but most people don't know Christ.

We are [b][u]NOT[/b][/u] a Christian nation any longer. Officially, we're an Agnostic one, and day by day we're becoming downright Athiest. I don't believe there will be a weeping prophet to help bring us back, though....don't think there will be another great revival preached by some dude spit up by a whale. The end is nigh and there is little time for such.

I'd love to see it happen...

but I very much doubt it will. 42,596 years from now we'll all be in Heaven and looking back on America as the wealthiest, and most powerful nation the Earth ever knew...

and the most foolish one, with the biggest fall.

Hi Angyl,

First let me say that i really enjoyed reading your insightful (Kingdom minded) and heartfelt post ...

You posted ...

"I feel like we're a shadow of the Nation of old Israel ... Now, like Israel of old, we've strayed ... in fact, we've strayed far worse than Israel did".


You know up until just recently i had it totally fixed in my head that America was in fact Israel's Church Age equivalent and therefore just like her, but Holy Spirit has dropped something very heavy into my spirit in that unlike Israel God Himself formed and personally nurtured Israel to His own special purpose out of one people, the Hebrews, via Abraham, Isaac and Jacob aka Israel, his twelve sons into twelve tribes, so that out of Judah He could birth the Lion that is also the Lamb of God, that thru Abraham's seed all of the nations of the earth would be blessed by the presence of Jesus ... America ain't called like that ...

This North American continent wasn't promised to the founding fathers like the land of Cannan is to Israel ... God didn't covenant with and tell the founding fathers to come over here and posses this land, and kill everything on it like He told the Israelites to do, which in my estimation was their only justification of the potential genocide of the Canaanites, for had they as a people took that upon themselves to do without God's explicit approval they would have been guilty of breaking the commandment of ...

"THOU SHALT NOT MURDER" ...

In all honesty since the Europeans who first came here were not explicitly sent in the OT sense like the children of Israel were to their God promised land, then those founding pioneers were very guilty of breaking not only "THOU SHALL NOT MURDER" ... But ...

"THOU SHALT NOT STEAL" ... and ...

"THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S GOODS" equally ...

So needless to say i know longer view America "then" as a Christian nation, and i most certainly don't now ... i now view America as just another historically blood stained and blood guilty world power that God's allowed upon the scene of history because it fits into His plan and purpose ... i see America not as a Christian nation, but a nation that happens to be inhabited by a lot of Christians, and that if in fact God has shined His grace down on America it's because there was at least a remnant in the land that were so concentrated of salt and light that the less sincere of Christ, and the downright heathen benefited ... For a suposedly Christian nation this country has a harsh history, but it is evident that God has blessed His Church in this land greatly to the furtherance of His Kingdom goal ...



You continued ...
"Are we a Christian nation today? ... Polls will say yes ... But they're lying. Most people will identify themselves as 'Christian' when asked, but most people don't know Christ. We are NOT a Christian nation any longer. Officially, we're an Agnostic one, and day by day we're becoming downright Athiest".


Continuing on my play of words i'll agree by saying that were no longer a nation full of Christians, for now we've become a nation full of crap collectively ... Where are the equivalent of today's outspoken Puritans, that small remnant who unabashedly spoke out when the rest of the professing saved folk were all about forgetting God, and the dire consequences of doing so? ... The few flint heads like Ezekiel that dare speak out are being made sport of and being suggested to in jest that they may be in need of professional help ...

i think God's Church in America is like the nation of Israel ... Therefore my take is not that God's judgment is now on America because of her sins, but that God's judgment is on His Church in American because of our sins, for the Church in America is now responsible for the breaking of this commandment ...


"I AM THE LORD THY GOD, THOU SHALT NOT HAVE STRANGE GOD'S BEFORE ME".


You continued ...
"I don't believe there will be a weeping prophet to help bring us back, though....don't think there will be another great revival preached by some dude spit up by a whale. The end is nigh and there is little time for such ... I'd love to see it happen ... but I very much doubt it will.


See, and i happen to believe the exact opposite, for i know what He's had me doing in the past 20 years in my own little corner of the wilderness, far off the beaten track, where nobody knows my name save for my pastor, and the few who encounter my message of REPENT! ... And i know that i'm not alone ... i know that our Lord is coming back for a Church without spot or wrinkle, and i know that that ain't gonna happen without our being refined in the fire, until there be that great falling away of those who need die off in the wilderness because they're to timid to inherit the promised land, and i know what God's said to me personally in my spirit that has had me chompin at the bit to get loose, but no one in America is gonna be ready for His prophet's messages until He scares the devil out of them, so in the meanwhile like Paul and Silas His spokesmen pray to and sing praises to Him in our spiritual prisons until such time as His earthquake releases us ... i have enough faith for the both of us that you will see it happen, and that you will also be a part of the gretaest REVIVAL the world has ever seen!



You ended;
"42,596 years from now we'll all be in Heaven and looking back on America as the wealthiest, and most powerful nation the Earth ever knew ... and the most foolish one, with the biggest fall".


Ha! ... ha! ... i like that number for i thinks it's pretty sure that this old system of things ain't got that much time ... Hmmmmm, 42,596 years from now do you think we'll even think of America? ... And 42,596 years from now i think it's pretty safe to say, as according to the end of the Revelation, that heaven will be down here on earth ...

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" - Rev. 21:1-4

Gives me goose-bumps just to meditate on it! ... Amen