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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The difference between men and angels(once saved always saved?)

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 The difference between men and angels(once saved always saved?)


Angels were born into the presence of God. They were immediately privileged to dwell in the unadulterated presence of God Almighty. It is obvious that they had the ability to sin, as man did, but there is a direct correlation between proximity to God and depth of sin and rebellion.

Men know in part, and have at best, vague
notions of God. Angels knew everything there was to know about God and what it meant to dwell in His presence continually. Obviously to reject that, there is no where else to go. Redemption is to bring someone into a right relationship with God, Angels already had that. This is what they rejected, that is why they are already judged.

Adam and Eve had limited contact with God. God would come in the cool of the day and walk with them. What the born-again Christian looks forward to is something even better than the garden of Eden. When we pass over, we will dwell in the unadulterated presence of God eternally.But while we remain here on earth, we dwell in a “Garden like,” existence.

So, while Adam and Eve now had the knowledge of good and evil, their experience with God was limited, therefore their rejection of Him was also limited and the possibility of salvation still existed.

Imagine a palace, the wealthiest palace ever built. Now imagine children grow up in that palace and other children grow up in the slums of the city in which the palace is situated. Some of the children in the palace will become spoiled brats, while others will appreciate what they have.

Who knows why some choose one way and some choose another. The ones who reject the palace living and do not appreciate it, who grow rebellious and believe that there could be something better, they can never be happy and ultimately will begin to hate their surroundings. The formula is simple and applies to every created being.

One can either appreciate what they have and live in thankfulness or they can focus on what they do not have. What was an angelic principal is also a universal principal of all created beings. Imagine thankfulness and praise as a dwelling place, do you dwell there? Imagine ungreatfulness and discontentment as a dwelling place, do you live there? Where do you live?

Now imagine the children of the slums. They are born and raised in the slums. They know what it is like to be hungry, to have little or no material goods. They know what it is like to be trapped in generational circumstances. Four hundred years of slavery in Egypt, two hundred years of slavery in America, several hundred of years of peasantry in Europe are all examples of peoples whose lives did not change from one generation to the next.

These are people who knew what to be “hopeless,” truly meant. Now imagine, out of that darkness, the man in charge of the palace, comes into the slums, comes into Egypt, comes into America, comes into Europe, and offers every single dweller the opportunity to come and dwell in the palace. For those who accept the offer, can you imagine how they would differ from the original palace dwellers who had become discontent?

Because they had known what it was like to suffer depravation, hunger and hopelessness, the slum dwellers joy in his knew surroundings would be impossible to measure, Their gratefulness and gratitude would be without end.

Now imagine the palace dwellers who had rejected the palace life because of discontentment, lack of gratitude. They now dwell in the slums, and it is so much more difficult for them to dwell there. In fact, it is impossible to estimate their misery because one would have to have dwelt in the unadulterated presence of God and then experience the exact opposite. (This is the true hell of Calvary )

To compound this, they know that once they rejected palace living and left, it would be impossible to return. So their level of hopelessness is a “pure,” hell if you like.

Many of you may know about Calvin and his counterpart Arminius. They held views that diametrically opposed each other. To break it down to its simplest of terms one believed that once saved always saved, and the other believed that it was possible to lose ones salvation.

This is a debate that has been going on for centuries and continues to this day. There are good men on either side of this debate and it is without doubt that there will be no conclusion until Jesus comes back. There are too many denominations nowadays, there can be no council held to clear up the matter, so the issue lies with each individual Christian.

So, if you have ever pondered the questions raised by Calvin and his counterpart, and never came to a conclusion, or did but there is room for doubt, how then should one live in order to be certain? Many times Christians will say to non-Christians that even if the Christian is wrong, then the only harm done will have been to have lived a life of honesty and integrity and a life that tried to love his fellow human being. If the non-Christian is wrong, obviously there is the dire consequences of hell.

What if you’re a Calvinist and your wrong? What if you believe that you could lose your salvation and your wrong. The Calvinist would say that the other side would live in fear, with no assurance of salvation, Arminius would say that the other side would live without fear of God and live any way he wanted, neither of these are desirable ways to live.

What if we just lived in thankfulness for our salvation? No matter what circumstances came our way, we simply decided to focus on what we do have, namely salvation. We live in the joy of knowing that we once dwelt in the slums and now we dwell in the palace.

Brothers and sisters, never make the same mistake as the original palace dwellers and become discontent with your Christian existence. Even if it does not lead to losing your salvation (and remember the jury is still out) it is an affront to God the Father and to everything that was sacrificed on Calvary. Let us live in a continual state of thankfulness and gratitude that God Himself has redeemed us from the gutters of life. If we live in this manner, in a manner of genuine thankfulness and gratitude and love, then the matter of Calvin and his counterpart Arminius becomes irrelevant.

We are living in times where we do not have the luxury of endless debate. The time is short and our Lord draws near. Will He find us going about His business? Or will He find us wrangling endlessly over questions that can never be fully answered becAUSE we are fallible man. If you are fully convinced one way or another, good, you should be. Just know, that as mere humans, we have the ability of being wrong. Are you convinced that the sign gifts have ceased? Are you convinced that they have not? Good, you should be fully convinced. Yet, the measuring rod that the Lord will use is one of Love. Is your love for your brother and sister in Christ, greater than your theology? Has your theology caused a wall of seperation between you and other good brothers and sisters in Christ?

1Co 13:3 And though I give out all my goods to feed the poor, and though I deliver my body to be burned, and have not love, I am profited nothing.Love has patience, is kind; love is not envious, is not vain, is not puffed up.

The real fight, brothers and sisters is the fight between light and darkness. Does your walk in this life generate light? Does the warmth of your love, first for the brethren and then for the world, draw all men to Christ in you, who dwell in cold darkness? Will the Lord say to you "Well done good and faithful servant, your theology was better than your brothers?"

When we find a unity of purpose, when we stand in one accord , arrayed for battle against our common enemy, then the Lord will pour our His Spirit on us and go before us and help us to realize the victory that has already been won on the bloody battleground of Calvary. When we do this, Reformation will have come and we will be revived as a Body.................Frank

 2008/12/10 14:14

Joined: 2008/10/2
Posts: 203

 Re: The difference between men and angels(once saved always saved?)

Dear brother Frank,

I really appreciate this post and I sense in what you've written a deep love for your brothers and sisters in Christ, and a desire to see unity restored to His body. Myself, I need God's wisdom to know what to post and whether to post in certain discussions. One thing God has challenged me with, is to pray for my Christian brothers and sisters who may see things differently from me, as this helps me to remember that if we are Christ's, then we both share a love for the Saviour.

It was a blessing to hear of how God worked in people's live in Scotland. I pray that God continues this work, and the work that He is working to perform in all our lives.

Much love to all who long for Christ's appearing :-)

In Jesus,

 2008/12/11 3:47Profile

Joined: 2004/10/6
Posts: 114


Thank you for this love post! I used to get pretty worked up over the OSAS issue, but usually what I find as the overriding issue in the discussion is pride. I was at our wallbusting monthly community service where many churches get together and worship together as the church should "in unity". I got sidetracked by someone who wanted to debate. I kept trying to down play the issue and lets just go enjoy the after the service fellowship, but I missed some important fellowship because it was important to him that I see my error. I love Paul Washer, and I know he doesn't believe exactly like me in all these points, but I am glad to serve in the same army with this man. I thank God for those who will just love and be broken before a mighty God. It makes the rest seem trivial. Lord bless you, Barry

Barry Voss

 2008/12/11 6:12Profile


HI bvo and live4jc

The time for this debate has come and gone. BVO, your exactly right, pride is the main issue. If we can just draw back a little and see the bigger picture, we will be able to see who benefits the most from the division this issue has caused. I believe that Greenock punctured a hole in the wall of the stronghold of division. That is why there was so much resitence in the spiritual over there. Yet, the Lord gave us awesome prayer sessions where good brothers and sisters from different countries and backgrounds and cultures stood together in one accord, recognizing that the time is short and that we have a common enemy. And because we stood together, in one accord, the Lord poured out His Spirit on the proceedings. This is a war, we are an army, we do have different views on many subjects, but we stand beside, and fight with the same Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ our Lord. This is the rise of the Bapticostals :) Good men and woman form either side, fighting together for the same cause. Calvinists, Arminiuns coming together to fight the final battles in these the latter days. To all who would stand upon the Word of God, whether Baptists or Pentecostals, Calvinists or Arminiuns, to all who Love God with all their hearts and are truly born-again, our fight is not with each other, our fight is with the forces of darkness. If we cannot love the brothers and sisters that we can see, then our claims that we love God whom we cannot see are preposterous. They will know us by our love. The very basis of our Salvation is Love, the love of God. Calvary is a living monument to Love and forgiveness. We should live in the light of this Love. Love is not weak, in fact, the truth spoken in Love is the most powerful force. It recognizes peddlers of the Gospel and wolves in sheep's clothing, but, at its very core, it recognizes other family memebers and it loves them. If love for your brothers and sisters in Christ was a crime, would their be enough evidence to convict you? :)..........Frank

 2008/12/11 9:11


"One thing God has challenged me with, is to pray for my Christian brothers and sisters who may see things differently from me, as this helps me to remember that if we are Christ's, then we both share a love for the Saviour."

" I thank God for those who will just love and be broken before a mighty God. It makes the rest seem trivial. Lord bless you, Barry"

Praise God for these two statements. This is the way forward, this will be the next move of God..........Frank

 2008/12/12 9:04

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