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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A statement and venting about Calvinism and its current trends.

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Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326



Brother ... Can I ask you to slow down a bit?

Of course it is not my intention to get into an extensive debate. I neither have a desire to do so at least in a way that is not fruitful since I have already discussed these things at length with many. My intention was to only say what I said.

What I did want to offer however was a couple of things you might want to take a look at. One, regarding Luther - It caught me somewhat off guard in being somewhat a stickler for source material but also due to the context that Luther wrote what we consider such an ill-advised treatise - Rather than go into it all ... Luther , Calvin , Zwingli and the reformation..... If you scroll down a couple of replies there are a handful of links to that which I mentioned. It is still difficult but might give you some other considerations.

I will have to look over this thank you.

As for all the resources and what not I have been over them and I also agree with your stance doctrinally so cheers for that. And I am not completely denouncing anyone just pointing out some of the problematic issues that I see.

 2008/12/4 18:53Profile

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4582


Hi davidt...

In considering the debate (which usually deviates to a debate over [i]eternal security[/i]/[i]once saved-always saved[/i]), I have been thinking about certain conversations that I've had. One brother even told me that we cannot fall away from God if we truly have come to Christ.

Yet I am daily reminded about how easily I could turn to sin. Sin is ALWAYS at the door...always calling us with temptation. I'm not just talking the little foxes that destroy the vines -- but the big sins too! How many men do you know who are tempted to lust...or worse? While the magnitude of that is different with different men, the opportunity for temptation is there for all of us. I am so aware of my own humanity...and human flaws! I remember Paul Washer, in the [i]10 Indictments[/i] message, telling people that he wouldn't trust his son with a young woman because he "[i]doesn't trust his son's father[/i]."

We are all capable of falling into sin. I believe in the "bottom line" regarding this issue. The bottom line? Don't die while in sin! That is too great a risk to take -- and it is unrealistic (in my view) to simply claim that God will not recognize our sin simply because we placed our hope, faith and trust in Christ at one time. Rather, we die DAILY.

Anyway, I didn't mean to deviate from the topic. This is just something that has been on my mind lately.


 2008/12/4 23:48Profile

Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326



Yes I agree. I think the main thing is to abide in Christ and you will not have to worry whether your salvation will be lost or not because the topic wont come up if it is not an issue.

 2008/12/5 19:08Profile

Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90

 Re: A statement and venting about Calvinism and its current trends.

I read the whole thread and really enjoyed your comments. I likewise at one time thought the world of Luther and Calvin until I read their history and got real Bible salvation that made me "free from sin" (Rom 6:18).

Luther wrote against the "Against the Robbing and Murdering Hordes of Peasants" and said "Let whoever can stab, smite, slay. If you die in doing it, good for you! A more blessed death can never be yours…"

There is no record of Luther repenting for encouraging the killing of the peasants. In fact, he later stated "I, Martin Luther, have shed the blood of the rebellious peasants; for I commanded them to be killed. Their blood is indeed upon my head; but I put it upon the Lord God, by whose command I spoke" (Table Talk, p. 276. Eisleben edition).

Calvin wrote to William Farel that "if he [Servetus] shall come [to Geneva], I shall never permit him to depart alive, provided my authority be of any avail" and true to his word he was instrumental in seeing Servetus receive the death penalty.

Calvin didn't repent of this murder, for some 8 years later he wrote to Marquis Paet, "Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard."

I likewise reject the Nero teaching of unconditional election where God is accused of taking pleasure in sending souls to hell for not coming to him while he imputes Adam's sin to their charge, brings them into this world with a nature that is bent to sinning, and when he sends out his ministers to call these people to repentance he refuses to give them the grace they need to come to him.

What an awful charge to make against a just God.

God save the world from this blasphemous doctrine.

Bob Mutch

 2008/12/11 0:34Profile

Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326



Thank you for your comments and further clarification on these matters. I would like to make it clear though that I don't completely reject all the teaching of Calvinism nor am I Arminian. I am a bit mysteriously in the middle. I feel as if I cannot lawfully by scripture jump into either camp doctrinally completely since I am confident that scriptures do not make it absolutely clear and without that I believe it would be unsafe to tread on such serious claims in making such assumptions.

 2008/12/11 21:36Profile

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2145

 Re: His Covenant People

Psa 89:3,4 I have cut a covenant with My elect; I have sworn to David My servant,I will establish your Seed forever, and build up your throne to all generations. Selah.

Psa 89:15,16 Blessed is the people knowing the joyful sound; O Jehovah, they shall walk in the light of Your face.They shall rejoice in Your name always; and they are exalted in Your righteousness.

Psa 89:20,21 I have found My servant David; I have anointed him with My holy oil. My hand shall be fixed with him; and My arm shall make him strong.

Psa 89:24-37 But My faithfulness and My mercy is with him; and his horn shall be exalted in My name.I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the floods. He shall cry to Me, My Father, You are my God, and the rock of my salvation. And I will make Him My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth. I will keep My mercy for him forever, and My covenant shall hold fast with him. And I have established his Seed forever, and His throne as the days of the heavens. If his sons forsake My Law, and do not walk in My judgments; if they profane My statutes and do not keep My commandments; then I will visit their transgressions with the rod, and their sins with stripes. But I will not annul My mercy from him, and I will not be false in My faithfulness. I will not profane My covenant, nor change what goes from My lips. Once I have sworn by My holiness; I will not lie to David. His Seed shall be forever, and his throne as the sun before Me. Like the moon, it shall be forever; and a faithful witness in the sky. Selah.

Psa. 89:29

“His seed also will I make to endure for ever.” David's seed lives on in the person of the Lord Jesus, and the seed of Jesus in the persons of believers. Saints are a race that neither death nor hell can kill: Rome and its priests, with their inquisition and other infernal cruelties, have laboured to exterminate the covenant seed, but “vain is their rage, their efforts vain.” As long as God lives, his people must live. “And his throne as the days of heaven.” Jesus reigns on, and will reign till the skies shall fall, yea, and when the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, his throne shall stand. What a blessed covenant is this! Some commentators talk of conditions, but we fail to see any; the promises are as absolute as they can possibly be, and if any conditions as to the conduct of the favoured individuals can be conceived, they are disposed of in the succeeding verses. (CHS)

Psa. 89:30

“If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments.” It was possible, terribly possible, that David's posterity might wander from the Lord; indeed they did so, but what then? Was the mercy of God to pass away from David's seed? - far from it. So, too, the seed of the Son of David are apt to start aside, but are they therefore cast away? Not a single word gives liberty for such an idea, but the very reverse. Expositors in their fear of Calvinistic doctrine shake off the fear of adding to the word of God, or else they would not have spent their time in talking about “the conditions” of this absolutely unconditional covenant. (CHS)

Psa. 89:31

“If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments.” The dreadful “if” is suggested again, and the sad case is stated in other forms, But if it should be so, what then? Death and rejection? Ah, no; Blessed be God, No! If their sin be negative or positive, if it be forsaking or profanation; if either judgments or commandments or both be violated, yet there is not a word as to final destruction, but the very reverse. Legalism will import its ifs, but the Lord slays the ifs as fast as they rise. Eternal shalls and wills make glorious havoc among the and buts. (CHS)

Psa. 89:32

“Then will I visit their transgression with the rod.” Not with the sword, not with death and destruction; but still with a smarting, tingling, painful rod. Saints must smart if they sin, God will see to that. He hates sin too much not to visit it, and he loves his saints too well not to chasten them. God never plays with his rod, he lays it well home to his children, he visits them with it in their houses, bodies, and hearts, and makes them know that he is grieved with their ways. He smites home and chastens “their iniquity with stripes,” which are either many or few in proportion as the heart is properly affected by them. The rod is a covenant blessing, and is meant to be used. As sin is so frequent, the rod never rests long together; in God's family the rod is not spared, or the children would be spoiled. (CHS)

Psa. 89:33

“Nevertheless.” And a glorious nevertheless too! “Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him.” O glorious fear-killing sentence! This crowns the covenant with exceeding glory. Mercy may seem to depart from the Lord's chosen, but it shall never altogether do so. Jesus still enjoys the divine favour, and we are in him, and therefore under the most trying circumstances the Lord's lovingkindness to each one of his chosen will endure the strain. If the covenant could be made void by our sins it would have been void long ere this; and if renewed its tenure would not be worth an hour's purchase if it had remained dependant upon us. God may leave his people, and they may thereby suffer much and fall very low, but utterly and altogether he never can remove his love from them; for that would be to cast a reflection upon his own truth, and this he will never allow, for he adds, “nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.” Man fails in all points but God in none. To be faithful is one of the eternal characteristics of God, in which he always places a great part of his glory: his truth is one of his peculiar treasures and crown jewels, and he will never endure that it should be tarnished in any degree. This passage sweetly assures us that the heirs of glory shall not be utterly cast off. Let those deny the safety of the saints who choose to do so, we have not so learned Christ. We believe in the gospel rod, but not in the penal swats for the adopted sons. (CHS)

Psa 89:52 Blessed be Jehovah forever. Amen and Amen!

 2008/12/12 9:53Profile

Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326



This is an example of what I have been saying. In your post you quote Charles Spurgeon. I fear that Calvinist venerate these men too highly and this leads to errors and these men were often erroneous themselves to a high degree. Another example would be from your signature. The example is that Calvinist's will argue the positive sides of there view but then they don't mention the negative sides.

 2008/12/12 22:28Profile

Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re: Enough of this

Brethren, this is enough. The Calvinist/Arminian threads have run their course, and it's time to lay them down. We ask that you stop creating them, and please stop debating these things on SermonIndex. Brethren, it must stop.

New threads continuing to press this debate will be locked. There is a season for all things under heaven - and the season is over for these Cal/Arm feuds.

This thread is locked. PM a moderator if you have any questions.

Paul Frederick West

 2008/12/12 22:46Profile

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