| Poster | Thread | Nellie
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Joined: 2004/4/5
Posts: 952
| | Re: | | As far as the majority of the Church of the Church of God denomination goes.
It is about the Pastor having control.
They have taken the control away from God the Father, Son, and Spirit, and given it to mortal man.
The Elders and Deacons are hand-picked by the Pastor, and they wouldn't dare go against him.
It may not be this way in the Church you attend, and it isn't this way in the small Church I attend now, Thank God.
No one is pressured to give.
The fleecing of the flock, and false doctrines that abound from the pulpit are rampant.
Father, help us all.
God Bless
Nellie
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|  2008/11/28 12:28 | Profile | Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732
| | Re: | | Quote:
The Elders and Deacons are hand-picked by the Pastor, and they wouldn't dare go against him.
In some churches this is the case. In many others, such as the one I attend, the board is much more in control. In this case the pastor is certainly accountable, but he also can become embattled in these environments. Having experienced both kinds of governments I can't really say which one is better or worse.
MC
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Mike Compton
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| | 2008/11/28 13:12 | Profile | Lordoitagain
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Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 632
Monroe, LA - USA
| | Re: | | I agree that both of those types of government can be bad, but there is yet another type of church government, as I was mentioning that I saw in El Salvador . . . an absolute plurality of leadership like Jesus left in charge when he left (11 men [which later became 12] - not 1 man with a board of 10).
The governmental set-up that is in the majority of the churches is patterned after earthly governments which Jesus forbade
Quote:
Luke 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
When there is a GROUP of "pastors" "preachers" "ministers" leading a church, and all realize that they are merely servants (like a waiter at a table serving a meal-see the Greek definition there) then there is a sharing of the burden.
If each of the "board members" in the case that brother Compton referred to had to spend hours before God in prayer and hours in The Word in order to be prepared to minister, (and hopefully with results) it would change their board meetings drastically. If it was understood that they were not a "board with a pastor", but that they were all pastors sharing the burden to see God work in lives, it would be a different picture altogether.
The set-up that most evangelicals have is terribly unhealthy. Most American Christians are dependant on their pastors to do all of their deep Bible study and to determine (for them) what is good doctrine and bad doctrine. In most cases the pastors encourage them to study . . . but without ever having the challenge to study and minister before others, they never establish (for themselves)in their own hearts what they really believe.
WHAT WILL the majority of American Christians do, if we are thrown into concentration camps and have to TRULY stand alone . . . . with no Bible near to even look up verses about what we believe?
Paul stated very clearly:
Quote:
1 Corinthians 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
Most Americans' faith in the fires of persecution will have to be "I know that brother so-and-so preached it like this, and I KNOW that he is a man of God" . . . Instead of having shared in ministry and studied the Word with a solid conviction of what it says.
When a pastor falls in America, he takes many with him because we are SO pastor-dependent. When a pastor begins to err few in most American congregations can even detect it because in most cases . . . he is our link to God.
Will it take persecution and underground church operations to re-structure our faulty systems? In most cases it probably will . . . but the Fourth Man will be in the fire to help us through the whole process.
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Michael Strickland
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| | 2008/11/29 13:12 | Profile | White_Stone
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida
| | concentration camps | | Dear Lorddoitagain,
Both of your posts have been inspiring and uplifting for me. With the pending changes coming my husband and I both forsee concentration camps as a distinct possibility. Those and a new monetary system requiring the 'Mark of the Beast.' There is no church such as you speak of around here. We read and study together and follow threads on many forums. God gifted us with the fellowship of a fine Christian Man a couple of years ago and he has done as much as he can to direct us to learn more of the Lord's will.
Memorizing scripture is a good step in the right direction.
In the Bible it speaks of singing Psalms. I have tried this but get stuck with phrasing. Will keep working on it.
Your final paragraph is worth repeating:
"Will it take persecution and underground church operations to re-structure our faulty systems? In most cases it probably will . . . but the Fourth Man will be in the fire to help us through the whole process."
Amen!
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Janice
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| | 2008/11/29 13:44 | Profile | roadsign
Member
Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: concentration camps | | Quote:
I'm tired of being expected to perform, to endorse soul.
Hi, Paul, I am not hanging out here these days because of some weighty commitments. Nevertheless, the Lord just now directed me right here to your post. I hear you so intensely! You dont want to play church anymore, yet the church you have enjoyed has slipped away as a vapour into the distant past. Thats how I feel too abandoned, in a sense, through not by outward appearance.
Actually, I am taking a church history course, and am learning that most of human civilization has been no different. People have been rejecting Christ and trying to build their own Babel tower kingdoms and hurting people in the process. We could have been living under far worse circumstances than we experience now. I find myself frequently asking, Lord, where were you all those years? Where has the Spirit been working? Well, he has been at work! There are quiet hints all through history. Other than that, we can likely conclude that Gods best treasures never make it into the history books. We will meet them in heaven.
Meanwhile much of what we watch today under the umbrella of religion is well-defined by my OT prof: Since the fall in Eden, humans have been trying to claw their way back to God. All the while Christs offer of abundant life goes unheeded.
Quote:
I relinquished my credentials earlier this year because I can't take the foolery anymore.
The challenge is not to throw in the towel because we are fed up, but to relinquish anything that may stand in the way of what God may wish to do in us and through us.
Perhaps this is a season in which God is doing just that in many of us. Its unsettling.
Hang in there! And keep your eyes on the bigger picture.
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2008/11/29 17:38 | Profile | PaulWest
Member
Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas
| | Re: | | Quote:
The challenge is not to throw in the towel because we are fed up, but to relinquish anything that may stand in the way of what God may wish to do in us and through us.
Dear sister, it's truly good to see your name here. I've missed you.
You are absolutely right in what you wrote. I'm not throwing in the towel, per se, on my church family and other things pertaining to religion; it was more the denominationalism I was being required to uphold, preach (or not to preach), and concur to in writing for credential renewal. I was also tired of the relentless tithes demanded from me each month by the district Presbytery, the unnerving bookkeeping; the suspicion from time to time that the full tithe wasn't being paid if the amount fell below what the Presbytery expected from my secular income; as well as the ordination of female pastors - and the forebearance of preaching anything pertaining to election, predestination, limited atonement and original sin - which I was beginning to lean towards at that time.
I was tired of being asked by others what label I fell under in Christianity, and having to answer "AG", knowing that I no longer adhered to some of their non-negotiable tenets.
Quote:
Hang in there! And keep your eyes on the bigger picture.
Amen, I will. Yes, and I must constantly remind myself of the bigger picture...which is another reason I chose to credentially disassociate myself from the denomination (but not from the fellowship). I well realize the main concern the Lord has is not with my credentials or what denimination I belong to, but with [i]me[/i].
Thanks for the post!
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Paul Frederick West
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| | 2008/11/29 17:57 | Profile | roadsign
Member
Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: Dealing with old wineskins | | Hows it going Paul?
Quote:
it was more the denominationalism I was being required to uphold,
This is a difficult spot to be in, Paul! I see that some are trying to put chains around you to capture you and make you an enabler in its dysfunctional system. But if you comply you feed into it, and there is no love in that! If you resist, then you are perceived as the problem. Either way you suffer.
Of course, you and I, standing on the sidelines, suspect that those who are insisting on such a degree of denominationalism are merely putting a noose around their own neck. They are stranggling themselves. But to them it is just the opposite: the survival of the organism. The risk of the beloved wine skins tearing is just too frightening.
Jesus faced such temptations too. The religious establishment of his day was always trying to squeeze him into its mold. Thus, Jesus can identify with those temptations today, and is able to help those who must endure such temptations.
Today, in our free market of religion, you and I can simply walk out the door and go to another church or simply attend no church at all. However, it is a mistake to view that as our answer in and of itself. It could be an easy cop-out. It could even pull us away from where God has actually called us - not just to serve but to forge our faith - as God's refining fire.
Its always good to remember that our modern day choices have rarely been available historically. For most of history, if you fell out of line in your local religious establishment, you could lose everything. Your choice was either to comply or accept shunning or even death.
Render to Caesar, (or the church, or any other authority in our lives) what is Caesars and to God what is Gods.
Our challenge is to learn what the church can rightfully require of us and what it cant and then draw a distinct boundary line in our conscience first and foremost. To me, this has never been an easy procedure, but has been, and still is, more like a process of continual spiritual growth. As the chains of dysfunctional loyalty breaks, my freedom to love them and serve them with the power of Christ grows. (I have a long way to go!)
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2009/1/8 8:16 | Profile |
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