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Nellie
Member



Joined: 2004/4/5
Posts: 952


 Re:

Brother Paul,
God led me to a small Church.
We worship God in Spirit and in Truth.
The Spirit of God is welcome, and no programs or begging for money.
Everything is in order, according to the Word of God.
I feel Blessed by God that He led me to this Church.

May you pour out what God pours into you, and I believe you will.

God Bless you.
Nellie

 2008/11/25 10:35Profile
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: A Release of Frustration

Brother I too have been their and felt the frustration.

God called a woman at a well. God, called a man up a tree, God called a man on a cross, on a buggy. God feeds His sheep in the desert, on mountains, on the shores of lakes, in upper rooms and on the road to Emmaus.

We are not to uproot them because all the lost sheep will be found by The Good Shepard but we must be ready to recieve and to love them.

I sing praises to God in the nursing homes twice a week with a few other members of the Body who are not conected except in Christ and we are a real blessing to people with real spiritual needs..

Eddie


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Eddie

 2008/11/25 11:19Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re: A Release of Frustration

Quote:

Dear brethren,

Over the years I have found that sharing some of my frustrations on this site has helped me in the past, and brought a sense of solidarity to others who may be experiencing the same.

The church my wife and I attend is a vibrant AG fellowship in Texas. We are situated in the middle of San Marcos - the home of Texas State University. There are lots of college kids. As result, the church is compelled to highly contemporize the praise and worship for our young visitors (we sometimes do "Newsboys" songs and other Christian top 40 billboard songs). The volume is loud, some of the musicians dress seemingly to make a fashion statement: grunge, tweed blazers with the shirt untucked, jeans and hair gell. A female generally leads the worship, and she is like a firecracker leaping around, speaking in tongues, shouting, preaching to the congregation in-between the songs, etc. My poor ears can't take it anymore. I have to wait outside in lobby entrance during these times, my ears hurt, my head pounds, I sense myself becoming agitated. It has been going on like this for over a year now.

If I establish eye contact with a deacon, he will ask me to help take a collection, publically read a Bible passage (which he has chosen), or just come up and pray over something at the drop of a hat. This is because I am respected as someone "spiritually mature" in the flock. Yesterday, I was asked to come forward with the "prayer team" and help pray and I kindly declined, opting instead to stay behind in my seat and pray from there. It was an awkward moment. I'm tired of being expected to perform, to endorse soul. I relinquished my credentials earlier this year because I can't take the foolery anymore. The allowance of women to do whatever they want to on the platform; the compulsory tithing under threat of a curse; the offensive rock music, and the sermons never seem to deepen - they just remain at the same level to reach and speak to those who are content to meet them eye-to-eye.

I long for the singing of some plain old Charles Wesley hymns, with just piano or accapella. I long for a meaty sermon on the New Birth or the dynamic of Sin, or the power of the blood of Christ. Something with strong meat that is able to work revelation and spiritually metabolize under the authority of the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for letting me vent! The more I study the Word, the more I sing hymns in the quiet time, the more I soak myself in scripture and read good, wholesome literature by the saints of old, the more disgruntled I get with where I fellowship. Please try to refrain from offering me the banal, "Why don't you just pray about joining another fellowship..." because that base is already covered. I am where I am for a reason; it's just that this forum is really the only place I can vent (and you know it doesn't happen often) and expect some good, constructive thought from you guys in return.

See, I feel better already



Lord have mercy!

Now, that you have vented your frustration, what are you hearing the Holy Spirit telling you to do?

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2008/11/25 12:35Profile
fuehrerbe21
Member



Joined: 2008/10/21
Posts: 151
Wisconsin

 Re:

Brother Paul,

After chatting with you during the Revival Conference, I have since purchased The Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee and the Lord has been working in me many of the issues Nee has raised in his works, especially sharing in Christ's death.

My wife and I left our church a week ago in an effort to be faithful to the Spirit. The church we left is the opposite of what you have described. It has great Biblical teaching and they sing the hymns of old, but it is suffering from other biblical issues such as leadership, church discipline and the family. We are currently seeking a new church and are extremely aware of the challenge we currently face.

The church we went to this last Sunday was a typcial evangelical American church where the sermon is superficial the music is intended to create an emotional response. I was more focused on how the pastor sounded like Mr. Moviephone and the antics of the congregation that I didn't really worship God. The deepest the pastor went was asking the question, "Can God use evil to fulfill his purposes?" and he never even pursued a Biblical answer.

Nevertheless, Christian fellowship is essential and Biblical, therefore, we will continue to search until God tells us where he wants us.

Blessings,
Brother Ben


_________________
Ben Fuehrer

 2008/11/25 14:24Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
After chatting with you during the Revival Conference, I have since purchased The Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee and the Lord has been working in me many of the issues Nee has raised in his works, especially sharing in Christ's death.


Amen, TNCL has been one of the most influential books I have ever read, and the Lord has used it mightily to impact my life. I am honored that He used me to direct your attention to it. Before my wife started having a hard time with her pregnancy, I was actually teaching TNCL for adult Sunday school in my church! It's pretty incredible how ignorant most believers are to the basic fundamentals of sin, imputed righteousness - nay the imputed [i]life[/i] of Christ in our walk and the ramifications of such. Many times I would look out and see the adults staring back at me as if I were teaching the tenets of Mormonism or Armstrongism. I had to start at the very beginning with a proper understanding of the blood of Christ and the dynamic of Sin and death that entered into the human race through Adam's transgression. Seasoned Pentecostal saints serving the Lord longer than I've been alive really had no clue what I was talking about. To them, the power of the blood of Christ was an intangible charm that forgives sin - and something you could also plead over your children or car or bank account to ensure success.
Quote:
The church we left is the opposite of what you have described. It has great Biblical teaching and they sing the hymns of old, but it is suffering from other biblical issues such as leadership, church discipline and the family. We are currently seeking a new church and are extremely aware of the challenge we currently face.


The brother who pastors my church is a man of God and he teaches truth...but he is caught up in the web of utilizing contemporary means through music and programs and drama skits to bring people into the House of God. The sermons are solid and good and scriptural, but they never get any deeper than the basic guidelines of practical Christianity which one should be familiar with after a few years of walking with God. If you study the scriptures on your knees and commune with God habitually, you will quickly outgrow them and begin hungering for deeper preaching and a level of worship that the fellowship is sadly unable to provide. The old addage that the fleet can only go as fast as the slowest ship seems to aptly apply here. I think this is a sad consequence, and I really don't know how a man can remedy it, save he just start walking into the deeper waters and pray others begin to follow him there.

I have also as of late been disenfranchized with the whole one-pastor-monarcy that I am beginning to find objectionable and unscriptural. Perhaps in some cases it is plausible; but when you have able elders and deacons and other brothers in the congregation who walk with God and are able to contribute ministerially, why not establish a system of spiritual checks and balances and allow God to bring in fresh ministry and rotate the prophesying? As it stands, everything must be filtered down through one man, and he has uncontestable executive power. If you object or verbalize your feelings to others, you can be in danger of sedition, or trying to cause a schism.
Quote:
The church we went to this last Sunday was a typcial evangelical American church where the sermon is superficial the music is intended to create an emotional response.


O brother, this is truly the bane and agony I go through each Sunday morning: the staggering inability for us to differentiate between soul and spirit, between transient happy emotions and the unassuming bedrock of joy, between the flesh of man and the fire of God. It is truly agnozing to look around at others lifting their hands in worship, smiling in bliss and rocking trancelike side-to-side...and all the while knowing it is soul power and God is not there. You can watch old Jon Bon-Jovi videos from the late 1980's and see the teenage girls doing the same when the ballads are sung. With tears streaming down their faces!
Quote:
Nevertheless, Christian fellowship is essential and Biblical, therefore, we will continue to search until God tells us where he wants us.


Amen, brother. Corporate fellowship is vital, biblical, healthy. I believe in staying put right where I am until God moves me. The impetuous flesh wants to buck and kick and start a house church or something, but conceding to this will take me right out of the will of God and confound the deep lesson He is teaching me through this trial. I don't want to have to repeat this grade over in His school. Nothing lasts forever, and if we exercise long-suffering in Christ (no matter what the situation), the Lord will one day intervene and begin something completely new and glorious and transforming in your life. Those that jump the gun get the temporary relief they ache for, but in the long run they don't proceed into the upper echelons of His academy; they're left behind to repeat the grade, like Israel sojourning in circles for fourty years in a wilderness that should have only taken a few days to transverse.

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/11/25 20:11Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 The Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee

Is this book available on-line? Or, are there excerpts so I could sample it before buying? It sounds like a worthwhile item.

Regards, white stone


_________________
Janice

 2008/11/26 10:21Profile
fuehrerbe21
Member



Joined: 2008/10/21
Posts: 151
Wisconsin

 Re:

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:

I have also as of late been disenfranchized with the whole one-pastor-monarcy that I am beginning to find objectionable and unscriptural. Perhaps in some cases it is plausible; but when you have able elders and deacons and other brothers in the congregation who walk with God and are able to contribute ministerially, why not establish a system of spiritual checks and balances and allow God to bring in fresh ministry and rotate the prophesying? As it stands, everything must be filtered down through one man, and he has uncontestable executive power. If you object or verbalize your feelings to others, you can be in danger of sedition, or trying to cause a schism.



You raise a good point here about church leadership. I, too, would argue that a "one-pastor-monarchy" is not Biblical. If you study Acts, you will see the work of the apostles was spread out amongst the other elders of the Church. Paul, while a figurehead within the establishing the church at the time, was no more important in regards to completing the tasks and purposes of the church.

Not to rock the boat too much, I would encourage you to consider how "missions" operate and how that compares to scripture. I would suggest that missions today do not operate according to the model that was established in Acts. Paul never settled in one specific location, rather he moved all over, equipping and training the elders that had been appointed. The elders were native to the area in which they lived and understood the needs of the community better than Paul could have ever known.

I don't want to take away from your initial post about your frustrations with your church, but these are big issues you raised (in my opinion) regarding church leadership.


_________________
Ben Fuehrer

 2008/11/26 10:44Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re: The Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee

I answered my own question and found a downloadable PDF version. Google Search showed it.

Regards,
white stone


_________________
Janice

 2008/11/26 11:15Profile
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re: The Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee

Quote:

White_Stone wrote:
Is this book available on-line? Or, are there excerpts so I could sample it before buying? It sounds like a worthwhile item.

Regards, white stone



[url=http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/nee/nchrlife/nclcont.htm]The Normal Christian Life[/url]

If I would recommend a book, that would be this one.

 2008/11/26 11:30Profile
Koheleth
Member



Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re: A Release of Frustration

Hi Paul! We have been through some of the same. I guess my personal evaluation is questioning why there is so much bending to and appearing like the world. While not knowing anything about the church, you are describing a familiar and common scene, one that I have been part of several times. I know many people here have been or are wrestling with very similar situations.

I humbly would recommend that you ask yourself how much of what you experience on Sunday morning will reflect what you know to be in heaven or around the throne of God. If in your meeting there is coercion, strife, and disquieting music, then Satan is already lord there. If that is the case, I would get out. Where there is not love and mercy and peace and holiness, God is spiritually spurned. Where God is not welcome, in his fulness, in his holiness, then you don't want to be either. May the Lord guide you so clearly.

By the way, not necessarily just for you Paul, but I wanted to state my agreement with Krispy's comments that you need real brothers and sisters. It is too easy to become a "lone crusader". Also, about being instant in season and out of season, that doesn't apply to going forth with the worship team when someone else is directing you to. Sorry, but don't get pressured by misapplication of Scripture. You don't "need" to do anything. However, if you can't wholeheartedly submit to the current direction of the church, you really should leave.

In the end, I need you to listen to God and not me, but this is a bit of what I have come to over the years. All the best in your search.

 2008/11/26 17:28Profile





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