My frustration:
Being zealous for the Lord in a church that lacks spiritual vibrancy. It is not said but felt that they think me a kind of heretic.

My frustration:
Being the odd ball for constantly suggesting the importance of seeking the Lord's face foremost about issues concerning us, our church or our nation, rather than merely talking about it or trying to seek a solution in our wisdom and strength. Being rejected time and time again about the necessity of regular corporate prayer.

My disappointment:
For some time now, the Lord has placed upon me His burden for the souls of men and a desire to do something about in my community.
He impressed upon my heart to write a personal letter explaining man's sin and redemption through Christ. It's written in a loving way, but nonetheless, where Christ and the cross is mentioned, there will be an offensive. In the letter, I listed our church's name as a reference of being a good Bible believing church where the Gospel is preached. I have gone through the phone directory and sent copies of these letters to thousands of people, at a great
cost to me, but deemed it a small price to pay for the giving out of the Gospel to some who otherwise would never darken the door of a
church. At one point my pastor was pleased with me doing this, until he received a few responses from people (non-believers of course)who were offended by them. He told me that he wanted me to remove the name of our church from off the letters and as much as intimated that he agrees with those that have contacted him that I should cease from sending them. This greatly disappointed me because to me the main objected of a church is to get the Gospel message out. We should be proud as a church for doing this, and not be cowered by the offense of the ungodly.

I feel that again here I stand alone.

Charmaine

Let's be very careful that we do not isolate from all believers tho. While the thoughts shared on this thread are very legitimate, and I have experienced this myself... scripture is clear we need brethren around us. Real brethren in real life. While this forum is great interaction, it should not replace the real life fellowship of the brethren. Can't break bread over a computer... at least not yet.

Krispy

Brother Paul, I concur with your original post. I here what your saying. I also Hope you can Stay with it through fasting and prayer to bring about the changes needed. God Bless you, John

Hi Brother Paul...

I feel your pain. My parents came to the Lord at an old fashioned A/G fellowship in Tennessee. My sisters came to the Lord at a "modern" A/G fellowship in Virginia. I met the Lord one night at a summer camp in Yorktown, TX, while we were attending an Assembly of God congregation in southern Texas. I have seen this dichotomy of structure with the A/G for quite a while now. I attended congregations whose pastors seemed to have an unquenchable desire to "grow" in numbers and "vitality." Their solution? They have catered to the wants of youth.

I understand a goal of not having a "dead" church. There is nothing quite so dead as a Church meeting void of spiritual life. Yet I learned a long time ago that this has nothing to do with the music, preaching, etc... I have seen just as many (and perhaps, MORE) "dead" congregations in modern, "hip" churches as I have in the quiet, lowly ones.

Not too long ago, my wife, her sister and I attended a Christian music festival in Calistoga, CA. It was the "Rock of Ages" festival. I went mostly to hear some of the speakers (like the Creation Research people). However, I also went to see the music. I could not believe how "secular" some of it was! During the Newsboys portion of the festival at night, people were dancing with one another, "body surfing," and even moshing. Needless to say, I found it deeply disturbing. I didn't want to "judge," but I could hardly find a young person who seemed to be extraordinarily "genuine" with the sincerity of their faith at the festival!

I think that this is an epidemic at our churches. It has less to do with music and more to do with "pleasing" people...or fitting in with the conception of a pentecostal church. Pastors are simply excited when the congregation is busy with the workings of the Church. Thus, they don't worry about how "real" this faith is -- as long as people continue to attend.

My sister-in-law is 18 yrs old. Before she moved with us to attend Stanford University, she was attending a very active youth group at an independent church different than the one her parents attended in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas. The youth group seemed quite busy, and most of her family was excited that she wanted to be so involved in the work of the Lord. Yet as we started to inspect the youth ministry, we uncovered a climate of disaster. The youth were simply involved because they were allowed to be involved. The 26+ yr old youth pastor was secretly trying to date my sister-in-law (while she was in high school...taking her on secret dates and even kissing her many times while they were alone). This entire youth group, in fact, was like a social dating service. Guys and girls dated one another with shocking results...even though the silly youth pastor claimed to believe and teach the principles of "biblical courting."

The youth pastor was teaching them doctrine...but the hyper-charismatic doctrine he learned at Rod Parsley's bible school. He constantly proclaimed that he "is a man of God" and "hears the voice of God." The youth group simply revolved around staying busy for the church and the youth group music bands. They would go visit churches, but we found out that they would leave early if it became "boring." There was no hunger seemingly present for the truth of God's Word. They just seemed happy to be in a club.

We were glad to free my sister-in-law from that mess. We are trying to keep that silly youth pastor away from her (he lied to me repeatedly about their relationship...and even when confronted with what we know, he continued to lie or state his claim of being a "man of God" *rolls eyes*). Yet this sort of nightmare scenario is playing out in many churches today. This is especially true of Pentecostal churches (and even more classical pentecostal churches like the A/G). Pastors are just wanting something to happen, that they seem to settle for a "rain dance" -- like the prophets of Baal did before their altar. I even heard one pastor say that "[i]if God doesn't move, I move God[/i]!" Just think of the audacity of such a statement!!! The error lies in the commonly held notion that God only moves when there is a busy congregation...or exciting music...or full pews...or youth that actually are excited to go to Church. This is not revival. Nor is God confined to such things.

I feel your pain, brother Paul. I see so many congregations that are exceedingly dead -- even though they have a reputation of being alive.

I guess I am the one ranting now. But it does feel a little better to get it off of my chest!

:-)

_________________
Christopher

"getting their first taste of deeper devotions, being introduced to men like Watson and Flavel and Mueller through our studies."

Dear Brother West,

Reading Matthew Henry spoiled me for any modern writer or preacher. My first taste was Martin Luther and from there I was hooked. Martin Luther's works are available in download, Free at "The Project Gutenberg."

It was, also, then that I realized how 'dumbed down' our written language has become. How clearly these man can express their points. Matthew Henry leaves no confusion and nothing to interpretation. You know where he stands when he says something and you know where in Scripture he founded his stand.

If only there was a Church that taught from this perspective, I would make it a point to be in a pew. A Church like that would have no cheerleader leading Hymns. The members probably would not be concerned about clinging to their 'tax exempt' status, so there would be few paid positions available within it's ranks so there would probably be no Prayer Group Commando.

It requires an acquired taste for reading these books and it can spoil you for most anything else written within the last 100 years. However, it is not necessary to read them, as everything they say is in the Bible, but how clearly I can understand their point.

I can understand you not wanting to leave your church since you have this study group to look forward to and lead. I will pray the other men in your group grow in the Lord as you are.

Does you wife read these, too? It would be good if the other women at your Church were to start studying, too.

Going from what the Apostle Paul teaches is it not right for the 'praise and worship leader' to be a woman. She was out of line to tell you what to do. These are serious symptoms, I hope you are able to help them, if not, flee.

Kindest regards,
white stone

_________________
Janice

_________________
Bill

"He put his hand on my shoulder in commiseration and told me I could call him if I ever wanted a person to talk to. I guess he thought I was lonely and confused?"

Sad, he has a need to call you and he is blind to it.

It is my opinion that being 'promoted' to any position of authority or honor is personally destructive. I think the positions, if really necessary, should be on a limited basis to keep people humble. There is a famine in this Country for truly humble men and women of God. I am not speaking of false humbleness but genuine, spirit-filled humility. That is a revival that would move mountains!

Regards,
ws

_________________
Janice

Paul, I respect your courage and transparency to even address real heart issues that will surely offend some of your friends, and some of your ministerial colleagues. I rejoice too, for in it I hear your inner man standing for Spiritual reality...and the Gospel that accompanies that. A gospel where the least of the brethren are honored, and a simplicity of worship towards Jesus as Lord is apparent.


I believe that many, many true believers are travelling this same road of Divine discontentment. Once you have tasted of the glory of the Lord, how can a type do? You must have the real thing, and only reality will do! This is the sign of a true believer to me.


Also, Jesus said that He came not for Peace, but Division. I see pruning on many levels, both individually, and corporately. There are many who do have a form of Godliness, but have no concept of submitting to the Glory of God...and in the end, it is the only thing that will do for a son.



What you have described is typical fare for the "Emerging" church, which is a gospel that caters to me, and my senses. Is the music cool;
did I enjoy? It is formed from the idea that a happy church, and a satisfied Church will grow, stay, and keep giving....as dues, in a way...for a fulfilled life...and let us not forget a christian one.



There is no holiness, for there is no cross..no self denial, but constant balancing to attain self satisfaction, all in the name of Jesus and "MY" church.


A scripture has been coming to me recently..."God seeks those who will worship Him, and worship Him In Spirit and in Truth."



Could it be Paul, that the Lord's voice is upon you, beckoning you back to devotional purity?


with respect..your friend, Brothertom

I hear you brother... Its sometime very painful to go to church on a Sunday. This is why I am leaving the big bang ! Getting involved at grass roots level ... a few families and single men and women who want to pursue holiness, 1 guitar a few old hymns and bible studies... I get tremendous encouragement from Gideon who only need 300.

God help us all !