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rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

Brother Chris did you read all that I wrote because I stand by it unless you can prove from the Word of God where I am wrong.

Brother we are to receive salvation and healing through our Lord Jesus Christ. We are to forget those things that are behind us and to reach for those things that are before us.

We are to lay no blame on Christ and His church. The accuser of the brethren is the devil and let us not give him any place.

 2008/11/11 23:32Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Dear rbanks,


"Brother Chris did you read all that I wrote because I stand by it unless you can prove from the Word of God where I am wrong."



Yes, I did read your post brother, that is why I asked you if you had read this thread in its entirety because I think that at least some of the things you asked were addressed. I think it would be helpfull(if you have not already) to go through the thread and read the responses and if you still have the same questions let me know?


Wish you well,


Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/11/12 6:03Profile









 Re:

Being southerners, as Ginny, rbanks and I are, perhaps we have a different perspective on this issue.

If I do not have to stand before God and repent for the sins of my ancestors, then I do not understand why I have to do so before men.

I'm all for racial harmony. It's kinda ironic that the CD in my Jeep right now is the "I Have A Dream" speech given by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. If anyone has never heard it, you should.

Here is the thing about the church asking this present Congress and President elect for what you are suggesting... with them it is ALL about politics.

I am burned out on politics right now, as are most Americans... but this needs to be said, and it directly relates to what you are suggesting here. The Republicans lost this election because they chose a man who will not stand up for Conservative values. They thought if they acted more "moderate" (liberal) then they would win. But since when have the Democrats ever even tried to act conservative in order elections? They don't. But we conservatives are expected to bend over backwards for them.

In other words... this liberal government of ours is all about take take take.

No, the Church of Jesus Christ should never bow a knee to any government. Respect them and pray for them, and obey their laws so long as they do not cause us to violate God's Word? Yes. But bow before them? No.

Now, what you're leaving out of all of this is the fact that [b]church[/b], millions of Christians in America, were responsible for the end of slavery! Yes, there were those preachers in the south who preached the "curse of Cain", and preached that slavery was scriptural. [b]BUT[/b]... the majority did not. The majority of true Christian churches in the south did not preach in favor of slavery. You dont hear about them because the victors of war write the history books.

And Ginny is correct, that while slavery was a curse on this country, many slave owners did treat their slaves well... educated them, and most of all taught them the Bible. There were huge revivals (like the ones we say we're praying for on this forum) among the slave populations in the south. That never would have happened if they hadnt been taught the Word of God. How did that happen? Think about it.

That doesn't condone slavery, but it does prove that what Satan meant for evil God turned it into good.

On the other side of the Mason-Dixon there was the abolitionist movement... which was extremely Christian. It was a Christian movement led by the preachers! Harriet Beacher Stowe wrote the book "Uncle Tom's Cabin" which created a fire-storm in this country in the 1850's. Lincoln met her during the Civil War and said "So this is the little lady that started this war!" She was a preachers wife. (by the way, I've read this book twice... it's fantastic... it'll tear your heart out)

The [b]CHURCH[/b] is the main reason slavery ended in this country. And now you expect the church to apologize for something it didnt do? For what? Appeasement? No way.

I'm part Cherokee... why dont y'all apologize to me for the Trail of Tears?

Some of my white ancestors were the biggest outlaws in the state of North Carolina 140 years ago... should I serve jail time on their behalf?

No, I'm responsible for my sins. You are responsible for your sins. Do I sympathize with the black community? I sure do. I coach football with some black men. I coach black football players. We love each other, and I understand completely that they have been thru hell as a people. But I have done my part to "judge them not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character", just as Dr. King said we should.

I owe no man an apology for something I didn't have anything to do with. To do so would be to put man above God... because God does not require me to apologize for something I didnt do.

Everyone in this country just needs to grow up and take responsibilty for themselves and stop worrying about their ancestors did... or who owes me... or what I'm entitled to... or bending over for people in order to appease them.

Christ's Bride bows to Christ... not man.

Krispy

 2008/11/12 8:03









 Re:

By the way... contrary to what people are taught in school, most southerners did not own slaves. That was reserved mainly for the upper class, the aristocrats. My ancestors were dirt farmers, mountain people and Cherokees.

The vast majority of southerners who fought in the Civil War couldn't have cared less about fighting to preserve slavery. It wasnt about slavery for them... it was about a foreign army invading their state, their home. Back then people considered themselves North Carolinians first and Americans second. Thats how things were back then. They were fighting to protect hearth and home, not so some rich aristocrat in Charleston or Biloxi could keep his slaves.

There were a lot of platitudes spouted about, of course. States rights, etc... but for the common southerner it was about defending their homeland.

Yet most people from other parts of the nation think every southerner was a slave owner, every southerner is a racist, every southerner belongs to the KKK... and it's all a lie. As if there was something magical about the Mason-Dixon line that turns people into cross burning racists! It's rediculous.

It's like how some ignorant people think all Pentecostals handle rattlesnakes. Stupid generalizations is what it is.

I'm not old enough to remember the Jim Crowe days. Fortunately that passed just before I was born... but I know many black people who do remember it. One of the guys I've coached with in the past is a 72 yr old black man. He's told me some stories that would raise the hair on the back of your neck.

But you know what? He never once made me feel like I needed to apologize to him for the Jim Crowe days. You know why? Because he knows I had nothing to do with it. He knows I see him as a man, and treat him as an equal... because he is an equal. He's my brother. We're all equal... and I hold that truth to be self evident.

So again I say "no" to the church apologizing for something it didn't do just to gain the acceptance and favor of a godless bunch of politicians in DC.

Krispy

 2008/11/12 13:23
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi Krispykrittr,



"If I do not have to stand before God and repent for the sins of my ancestors, then I do not understand why I have to do so before men."



This has been responded to twice in this thread. I'm not sure why this continues to come up, except that either the rest of the comments here are not being read, or this objection is being raised so as to make the idea being suggested here seem unreasonable. No one is being asked to give an answer for the sins of others, as though being chargeable with their guilt, which I think is what I responded to here...


"...again, I don't think we would be asking for forgiveness as individuals, but on behalf of the Christian Church as a whole, [b]as it has been represented in America in the past[/b]."



In Nehemiah chapter 9, when the children of Israel were returning from exile, it says that they stood and confessed both their sins and the sins of their fathers. I don't understand exactly what the objection is to a public acknowledgment of the evil of these things that happened in the past and in the recent past?


What's more, are we suggesting here that racial hatred and seperation of any kind somehow does not exist anywhere in America or especially even among any Christians? That all beleivers in every part of the nation are entirely free from any sort of bias or prejudice, or unholy feelings or resentment of any kind towards those of different skin? if not, what then would be the objection to praying and fasting and confessing these things? Or seeking God for genuine heart reconciliation between black people and white people in or out of the Church?






Also, about this,


"Here is the thing about the church asking this present Congress and President elect for what you are suggesting... with them it is ALL about politics."



When I suggested this...


"Perhaps we could show humility in this by asking them to do something like this, by showing them humility in asking them to help us to repent."



I had hoped to make a point about humility in going to those who we feel are wrong and seeking their help. It seemed to me that admitting your wrongs before others that count you their enemy could help to change their attitude towards you.


I'm reminded of a story that is in one of Pastor Wurmbrand's books called 'Jesus, friend to terrorists.' He tells the story about a Christian man that lead a labor union in Japan through a conflict over a decrease in wages. One of the ways he brought resolution to the issue was to send a delegation to the President of the company. He suggested that they bow before the President and applogise to him for being so insensitive to the needs of the company and to tell him they would work without [b]any wages[/b] to show their faithfulness.



Maybe that sounds extreme. But it seems in keeping to me with the attitude of the One that washed His disciples feet. Maybe radical submission and humiliation, even when you would be well within your rights to maintain your own innocence and righteousness is just what is called for when wounds and divisions run deep, or when hatred and suspicion and anamosity prevail.



I think to focus on our own rights and on the [b]political[/b] nature of the initial suggestion here is missing the point.




About this,


"Now, what you're leaving out of all of this is the fact that church, millions of Christians in America, were responsible for the end of slavery! Yes, there were those preachers in the south who preached the "curse of Cain", and preached that slavery was scriptural. BUT... the majority did not. The majority of true Christian churches in the south did not preach in favor of slavery. You dont hear about them because the victors of war write the history books."




The subject here is the evil of forced slavery and racial hatred among a Christian people. It may be appropriate to mention the other things when you are writting a history book, but how is it helpfull when you are talking about [b]acknowledging the evil that was done?[/b] It gives me the impression that you're trying to diffuse it by clouding the issue.


But what if what you said is true about the millions of Christians that ended slavery, did they then in turn open their Churches to their black brothers and sisters? Were black people suddenly treated as equals and even humans? Were they invited en mass into "white churches" to partake of Holy communion? Were the millions you are talking about suddenly opening their homes to care for them? Or raise their voices in protest when they saw them being hung from trees?





About this,


"And now you expect the church to apologize for something it didnt do? For what? Appeasement? No way."



Maybe I'm grossly informed about the history Krispy, so please do correct me where I may be mistaken. Are you suggesting that white Christians treated black people for 400 years according to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ?

What, becuase the brutality was eventually ended it didn't happen?


Like I said, maybe I'm very mistaken. I didn't know for instance that black slave Christians could attend white Churches and that they broke bread together in fellowship. After all, the white slave owners that treated them so well must have surely esteemed them better than themselves. I didn't know that?


Or that they were considered equals in Christ, after all, in Christ there was no slave in America, is that right?







"Yes, there were those preachers in the south who preached the "curse of Cain", and preached that slavery was scriptural."


But, it was nothing?


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/11/12 23:32Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi again Krispykrittr,


About this,

"Yet most people from other parts of the nation think every southerner was a slave owner, every southerner is a racist, every southerner belongs to the KKK... and it's all a lie"



Are you saying that black people in the south were treated by white Christians according to the Gospel and commands of Jesus Christ?




Edit:

"As if there was something magical about the Mason-Dixon line that turns people into cross burning racists! It's rediculous."



I saw much racism as a child in the late 70's early 80's in Canton Ohio. You are right. Racisim is and was elsewhere.



And Richmond Virginia. I lived there too.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/11/12 23:44Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Are you saying that black people in the south were treated by white Christians according to the Gospel and commands of Jesus Christ?



By true Christians, yes... thats exactly what I am saying. You need to differentiate between Biblical Christians and religious christians.

There was a strong movement all over the country, and even in the south to abolish slavery. Obviously in the south it was squelched by the state governments, AND federal laws as well... such as the Fugitive Slave Act that was put in place in the early 1850's.

But perhaps you've never heard of John Brown? While he was born in the north, he was living in the south and loosley organized a revolt against slavery. Trying to lead a violent revolt against who? Not just slave owners, but also the federal government who allowed slavery to exist by their own laws. John Brown claimed to be a Christian, and was passionate about his cause. I cant say that I agree at all with his tactics... but he was filled with righteous anger over how his brethren who were black were treated in this country.

He was put to death by [b]the federal government[/b]... the same government you want the Body of Christ to bow down to and ask them to help us repent! How crazy is that?

You cant just stereotype all southerners like you are. You would rightfully condemn me if I stereotyped black people in any way, shape or form... yet you generalize and stereotype everyone else.

The [b]TRUE[/b] church was there... fighting to abolish slavery! Thats my whole point! I will not apologize for the actions of others when all along God's remnent was on the right side.

Thats like asking me to apologize to Muslims for the Crusades just because the Catholic Church erroneously calls itself a "christian" church.

I love ya, Chris. We've had good conversations in the past. But on this one you have your mind made up, and you are not listening. And I've never suggested that slavery was ok as long as they were being treated nicely.

At this point I'm bowing out of this conversation because the only thing that will come from it is contention for the sake of contention.

By the way... when you say things like [i]"Are you saying that black people in the south were treated by white Christians according to the Gospel and commands of Jesus Christ?"[/i] ... you are speaking in gross generalities. You simply can not do that.

I'll make ya a deal tho... as soon as the Body of Christ apologizes to me for the Trail of Tears, I'll join you in bowing before our government and apologizing for slavery (which my own ancestors had nothing to do with).

But ya know what... I dont need an apology. I wasnt there. Neither were you. And it was never a point of contention between you and I until you made it one.

God had a remnent, my friend. Just as He always has. That remnent was the true church, the true body.

Krispy

 2008/11/13 7:23









 Re:

Quote:
And Richmond Virginia. I lived there too.



Richmond? Thats as far south as you've been? You need to visit Ginny down in Mississippi!

Come see the autumn leaves here in the mountains (tho they are pretty much gone now), or come in the spring and smell the magnolia, jasmine and honeysuckle.

Krispy

 2008/11/13 7:38









 Re:

By the way... I just wanted to mention this.

I didnt vote for Obama. Had nothing to do with his skin color, it had everything to do with polotics.

And I didnt watch his victory speech... but I did see clips of the audience, and I was moved. They zoomed in on several folks, and even Jesse Jackson (who I can not stand), and they had tears streaming down their cheeks.

Why? I know why.

I could see in Jesse Jackson's eyes that he never thought he would see the day that a black man would be elected president. Thru all the struggle of the Civil Rights movement, thru all the years of Jim Crowe... all the ancestors born into slavery... and the ancestors captured and brought here...

... and here was a black president of the United States of America.

In 40 years America has gone from hosing black people down in the streets to electing a black man President.

Wow. It's very moving to see that on those people's faces.

Now, I absolutely think he is the wrong man for the job, but I can certainly understand what was in the hearts of those folks that night.

Krispy

 2008/11/13 7:48
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3179


 Re:

Quote:
... as soon as the Body of Christ apologizes to me for the Trail of Tears...


I will apologize to you Krispy - I have already asked God to forgive me and the people that came to America for what they have done, and continue to do, to the American Indians. But if you desire a direct apology, then please accept mine, for I am a member of His body, and therefore a representative thereof.

As this thread continues, I am reminded that God does not see things as separate events in time - and just as sap flows through the trunk of a tree and then out to the branches, it would seem that corruption in any part along the way would bring corruption unto the leaves.

Time is a bubble in the sea of Eternity

 2008/11/13 13:57Profile





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