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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Will only the christians that are baptizwed with the Holy Ghost go in the rapture?

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Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3433
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Billy Graham, Spurgeon, Tozer, Ravenhill... the list goes on and on... all men who never spoke in tongues. Are we prepared to say that none of these champions of Christ were Baptized with the Holy Spirit?

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 [i]"Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to [b]every man[/b] to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; [b]to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:[/b] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.[/i]

Notice scripture makes it clear that tongues is given to [b]some[/b], but clearly not all.

And just to make things perfectly clear, the Holy Spirit has Paul re-emphasize the fact the [b]not all[/b] will speak with tongues. Read on...

[b]1 Corinthians 12:28-31[/b] [i]"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? [b]do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?[/b] But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.[/i]

In context, the obvious answer to the question "do all speak with tongues?"... is [b]NO[/b].

I am glad for those who come here and tell us they speak in tongues. I believe in tongues. I believe in the gifts of the Spirit. The amazing thing to me tho is that people love to boast and argue for the gift of tongues... yet I rarely hear anyone boast and argue for the gift of helps, or administration, or exhortation, or [b]giving[/b], or intercession, or leadership, or mercy, or....

It's always about tongues. It's interesting that Paul goes on in the next chapter to actually [b]minimize[/b] the gift of tongues in light of the other gifts, and in light of godly love.

If you feel the need to carry the banner of "tongues", and convince everyone that you're right... and that everyone needs to speak in tongues... and grade people's spirituality on whether or not they speak in tongues... you are out of balance and what you're doing is unscriptural. You're out of order.

Tongues is an important gift because it comes from God, and if something comes from God... it's important. But compared to the other gifts of the Spirit, especially the ones that empower the believer to minister to others... tongues is the least important gift of all.

Oh Lord that we would all have the gift of "helps"!

Krispy



A couple of points to point out in Scripture. Just because tongues is mentioned last doesn't mean it's the least. (Do you have a Scripture reference that says "tongues is the least of ALL the gifts" and therefore it is of less importance to God and should be to us also?)

Quote:
1 Corinthians 12:28-31 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.



Second. I don't mean to be nit picky here but it doesn't say that the gifts are not available to "all." It just asks do all heal? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

The only answer is no, all do not; but it's definitely NOT because God is withholding these gifts from certain individuals.

I believe God has made available each and every gift to each and every individual who desires them.


_________________
Lisa

 2008/11/6 16:09Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Depends on how you interpret it. You can speak to me in Swahili and Vietnamese... they are "divers" tongues, [b]and they are unknown tongues to ME[/b].

Fact is there is no clear evidence in scripture that all men will speak in tongues when filled with the Holy Spirit. There is clear evidence (because it painly says so) that not all speak in tongues.

And you conveniently refuse to answer my question about Tozer, Spurgeon, etc...

And I stand by my last point in that post too. Another point you choose to ignore.

:-) ... love ya, bro.

Krispy



Correct....however, when it comes to speaking in "unknown tongues" the Bible is clear that: "..he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh NOT UNTO MEN, BUT UNTO GOD

1 Cor 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Thus, the unknown tongue of scripture is one that is NOT even spoken to man because he speaketh UNTO GOD and NO MAN understandeth. The point of speaking in an unknown tongue is NOT to speak to men anyway, because it is the spirit (inner man) praying and speaking unto God.

I am sorry Krispy, but the clear evidence is NOT what you suggest-the Bible does not say that ALL will NOT speak in (unknown) tongues-the Bible is clear that ALL will NOT speak with DIVERS KINDS OF tongue, yea, but the Bible never says that all will not speak in/with unknown tongues.

Divers kinds of tongues
Interpretation of tongues
Unknown tongues
"other tongues"

All three are all different facets of speaking in/with tongues

I did not REFUSE to answer your question about Tozer, Ravenhill, etc....I just did not deal with that part of your message bacause I do not base my beliefs off of men outside of the scripture. Yes, I truly and greatly appreciate the ministries of Ravenhill, Spurgeon, Tozer, etc...but it would have been a different thing if you would have asked that same question about Paul-but then again, we know he spoke in/with other/unknown tongues. Then again, even the upper room on the day of Pentecost, which refers to ALL who were a part of the Church at that time spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost:

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were [b]ALL[/b] with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled [b]ALL[/b] the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon [b]each of them[/b]. 4 And they were [b]ALL[/b] filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

ALL the about 120 were filled with the Holy Ghost AND began to speak with OTHER tongues. This was the WHOLE Church at that time.......

I did not choose to reply to your last statement, because truthfully it does not pertain to me-I have never had this conversation with you (at least not to my knowledge) so I did not find it necessary to answer regarding "it;s always about tongues"- This particular thread lead to the issue of tongues, and that is why I addressed it- the other gifts are not a part of the subject, neither had they come up until you mentioned them. The orginator of this thread was not asking about the other gifts-he was asking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit-...... and I am not even the one who started talking about speaking in tongues-I find that ironic. I didn't start talking about speaking in tongues until after you mentioned it first.........

love you to bro

 2008/11/6 16:32Profile









 Re:

Quote:
A couple of points to point out in Scripture. Just because tongues is mentioned last doesn't mean it's the least. (Do you have a Scripture reference that says "tongues is the least of ALL the gifts" and therefore it is of less importance to God and should be to us also?)



If you read what I wrote you would see that I said it is important because it comes from God, just as anything that comes from God is important.

Paul said at the end of chapter 12, after listing all these "miracle" gifts to [i]"But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way."[/i]

So obviously the Holy Spirit would agree all gifts from God are good... but some are "best" and some are not. It's not that they are less important (thats you putting words in my mouth)... but truly the Spirit says thru Paul that some are "best". And in context... the "best" are those which empower the believer to minister unto others. Read chapter 13.

Quote:
Second. I don't mean to be nit picky here but it doesn't say that the gifts are not available to "all." It just asks do all heal? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

The only answer is no, all do not; but it's definitely NOT because God is withholding these gifts from certain individuals.

[b]I believe God has made available each and every gift to each and every individual who desires them[/b].



No, here is where you are in error. Scripture never says the gifts are available to every individual who desires them. You will find [b]NO[/b] scripture to support that.

If you do I'll email you an ice cream sundae.

What scripture DOES say is that the Holy Spirit gives these gifts according to HIS will... not ours. The gifts are for the edification of the Church and for the ministry.

You missed this verse...

[b]1 Corinthians 12:11[/b] [i]But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally [b]as he will[/b].[/i]

The Holy Spirit gives the gifts according to HIS will. Not our desire. Our desire would be fleshly and we'd all want gifts that would make us look spiritual in everyone's eyes. Dont deny it, it's human sinful nature.

Therefore the Spirit decides who gets what based upon God's will.

Krispy

 2008/11/6 16:35









 Re:

Blazed... we'll never agree on tongues in this life, so we'll agree to disagree.

Let me ask you, do you agree to my response about the availability of all gifts to every individual who desires them?

Krispy

 2008/11/6 16:39
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Blazed... we'll never agree on tongues in this life, so we'll agree to disagree.

Let me ask you, do you agree to my response about the availability of all gifts to every individual who desires them?

Krispy




Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were [b]ALL[/b] with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled [b]ALL[/b] the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon [b]each of them[/b]. 4 And they were [b]ALL[/b] filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

ALL the about 120 were filled with the Holy Ghost AND began to speak with OTHER tongues. This was the WHOLE Church at that time.......

Is this true, yea or nay?

The truth is, you do not know, neither can you say " we will NEVER agree on tongues in this lifetime" because we do not know the future.

I will answer your other question, after you answer the one I just asked you.

In your other post you claimed I ignored some statements of yours, but then you also ignored one of mines. :-P

 2008/11/6 17:00Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Quote:


No, here is where you are in error. Scripture never says the gifts are available to every individual who [b]desires[/b] them. You will find [b]NO[/b] scripture to support that.

If you do I'll email you an ice cream sundae.

What scripture DOES say is that the Holy Spirit gives these gifts according to HIS will... not ours. The gifts are for the edification of the Church and for the ministry.

Krispy



1 Cor 14:1 Follow after charity, and [b]desire spiritual gifts[/b], but rather that ye may prophesy...

 2008/11/6 17:25Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3433
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

Quote:
If you read what I wrote you would see that I said it is important because it comes from God, just as anything that comes from God is important.

Paul said at the end of chapter 12, after listing all these "miracle" gifts to "But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way."

So obviously the Holy Spirit would agree all gifts from God are good... but some are "best" and some are not. It's not that they are less important (thats you putting words in my mouth)... but truly the Spirit says thru Paul that some are "best". And in context... the "best" are those which empower the believer to minister unto others. Read chapter 13


I did not mean to put words into your mouth!! God forgive me! Krispy forgive me!! I know that you’ve been over and over this topic (it sounds like) with a lot people; so you’ve pretty well dug your heels in that tongues is not for you.

I’m not arguing with you over the gift of tongues, per se. And you are right, that Paul did indeed say “best gifts” but would you not also agree that no where in Scripture did he infer that any gift was “least?”

I take issue with those who don’t want to speak in tongues, how they adhere to ({edit} Propogate would be a better word), the belief that tongues is “the least” of all the gifts and because of that, that lulls them into believing that they don’t need it.

God will withhold NO GOOD thing from those of us who desire spiritual gifts that God will be glorified in us that we might help others. That is my take on ALL the gifts.

There are these Scriptures...
For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.
Psalms 84.11

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Mt 6:33

God bless you Krispy

PS: I couldn't resist but I guess you owe BlazedbyGod a ice cream sundae!! :-P


_________________
Lisa

 2008/11/6 18:05Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

What makes one a Christian? Certainly not unknown languages not learned by natural means of birth. Christ is the only true gifted One, He that is born again in you is the first of all the greatest and truly the greatest gift, and He is the only One that gives gifts to men and the Holy Spirit is the only One that distributes the Gifts as He pleases for the upbuilding of the Church the Body of Christ His Church, not ours. We all have the Gifted One in us, if we are born again of the incorruptable Seed of the Father by the Son Jesus Christ, this is a Christian and they and they only will be in the first resurrection, and none of the gifts will give us a ticket to heaven. Only "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", will get you into heavenly places in Christ Jesus, our ticket is already validated by Him that is in us, seated in the Heavenlies as we are with Him NOW.

All do not speak with tongues, all do not prophesy, etc, but all can, because of Christ the Only Gifted One, by the distrubution of any of the gifts by the Holy Spirit as He pleases, not as we please with the evidence of our being in the Holy Spirit, being what is called divers tongues. Which Paul said the ratio is 10,000 to 5 in preference of the operation of tongues, 10,000, to speaking truth with understanding, 5. Tongues mean nothing, five words, unless the Holy Spirit is using them through a born from above believer, to bring others into the Kingdom of Christ in their own language with understanding and truth, for the upbuilding of the Body of Christ His Church which is, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".


In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/11/6 18:56Profile









 Re:

Quote:
you’ve pretty well dug your heels in that tongues is not for you.



Wait minute... when did I ever say that tongues are not for me? Have I ever said that I don't or haven't spoken in tongues?

Krispy

 2008/11/7 7:45









 Re:

Quote:
ALL the about 120 were filled with the Holy Ghost AND began to speak with OTHER tongues. This was the WHOLE Church at that time.......

Is this true, yea or nay?



Of course it's true. The Bible says it happened, so it happened.

However, your putting God in a box. You're taking a situation that happened at the birth of the church, and the coming of the Holy Spirit to establish the church... and applying to everything and everybody. They also had something like fire sitting on their heads, but I dont see you promoting the idea that that should happen everytime to everyone.

And as far as unknown tongues... when the people in the streets heard the disciples they heard them in their own languages. This is how the gospel was first spread around the known world. These people were in Jerusalem for the "holidays" from all over the known world... heard the gospel in their own language via the miracle of tongues... and they went back home and the gospel exploded.

They were not speaking in tongues of angels.

Krispy

 2008/11/7 7:47





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