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lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Abuse and forgiveness



My telephone rang this afternoon.
A man asked for help. His father had abused this man’s two daughters, two of the girls’ cousins of the same age, about one year to five years. Other girls had been targeted over the years.
This man phoning me, had arrived at a level at which he seriously, very seriously considers ways of forgiveness. He asked for help finding something to read, no theology, no sloppy agape – the real thing concerning how to forgive and how to express forgiveness.
Many men are theologically conversant, but spiritually ignorant in this area as well as in other areas. I cannot find books in my language dealing with this issue. We need to find something good, something solid to put in this man’s willing hands.
Are you able to help?
Lars


_________________
Lars Widerberg

 2004/7/15 16:02Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Abuse and forgiveness

Lars
Some aspects of 'What's so amazing about grace?' might be relevent?

Its always ultimately impossible to put ourselves into the shoes of another person; grace is so personal. But grace is 'variagated' (manifold) and there is a aspect which will just exactly meet your friend's need. Encourage him to be honest with God about the way he feels, and assure him that God will not be shocked or offended by his feelings.

He will need a miracle, but God is able.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/7/15 17:42Profile
Chancellor
Member



Joined: 2004/7/13
Posts: 19


 Re: Abuse and forgiveness

No theology? Is that some sort of code phrase for "I don't care what the Bible says because I don't consider the Bible relevant for today"? "Theologically conversant but spiritually ignorant"? What on Earth is that supposed to mean: that what the Bible teaches is not relevant for "real life" and those who insist on Biblical solutions are spiritually ignorant? Or was it intended to be an insult to pastors, Bible teachers, and church elders?

I presume the man in question understands that Jesus commands us to forgive and that Jesus will not forgive us if we don't. So, let's just accept that as a given that doesn't need to be reiterated. The question then becomes one of "Yes, but how?"

The scripture tells us "In justice, remember mercy." In dispensing justice, we're to also be merciful to the offending party. That doesn't mean that we just let him get away with his crime but it does mean that we are merciful in the dispensing of justice (keeping in mind that every human deserves nothing except for eternity in the lake of fire). The child molester must be held accountable for his crime under the law but, as Christians, we are not to seek vengeance, we are not to feel or display animosity or hatred toward the criminal, we are not to harbor bitterness in our hearts toward that person, and (though I said we didn't need to reiterate this) we must forgive that person. What does it mean to forgive? Go study what it meant for God to forgive you of your sins and you'll understand what it means for us to forgive one another.


Grace is God giving us what we, in a positive sense, do not deserve.

Mercy is God not giving us what we, in a negative sense, quite rightly deserve.


_________________
Chancellor Carlyle Roberts, II

 2004/7/15 19:19Profile
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

Quote:
Chancellor wrote:
No theology? Is that some sort of code phrase for "I don't care what the Bible says because I don't consider the Bible relevant for today"? "Theologically conversant but spiritually ignorant"? What on Earth is that supposed to mean: that what the Bible teaches is not relevant for "real life" and those who insist on Biblical solutions are spiritually ignorant? Or was it intended to be an insult to pastors, Bible teachers, and church elders?

I'm sure no offense was intended. I believe the "Theologically conversant but spiritually ignorant" would include those people very well versed in the Bible and Biblical Theology, very skilled in teaching and discussing even the very complicated issues in Theology, but when it comes to some basic spiritual application, like having to forgive someone who did something terrible to them, they find that all their knowledge doesn't really help them. I believe that would only be the case if they hadn't really been absorbing the Scriptures into their lives, but nonetheless it does seem there are more than a few people who fit this description.

Of course the Bible is relevant to this, as it is to everything. Anyone having difficulty forgiving should remember well

Matthew 18 (NASB)
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23 "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 "When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 "So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'
29 "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 "Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

As I understand it, the man in question isn't unwilling to forgive, but is confused as "how" to forgive. One of the congregants in my church (not an elder, but I keep thinking he is) once expressed similar confusion on "how" to love one's enemies.

Personally I have a hard time relating to those questions, loving and forgiving never seemed to be terribly complicated things to do in the attitude sense (rightly expressing that love and forgiveness can be very complicated, though). I've never had to forgive anything like the offenses in question, though.

 2004/7/15 19:47Profile
revival9
Member



Joined: 2004/6/6
Posts: 140
Arizona, USA

 Re: Abuse and forgiveness

Brother Lars,

First: Is the perpetrator still abusing? Your post does not make this clear. I'm concerned. I'm a victim of this kind of abuse. The perpetrator must be stopped.

This man has a great opportunity to come to Christ himself (if he hasn't yet). Tell him that I believe the Lord means to use his life, his testimony, for the salvation of many, because of what has happened. It has happened for a reason. Praise GOD that he is reaching out to forgive! Only GOD can do that in a person's heart.

Tell him he may have the opportunity to win the perpetrator to Christ, also, by his own walk with God. The girls involved will need healing, too. And much clear teaching about how God, being a male authority figure, is NOT an abuser like this grandfather was. The Holy Spirit will heal them all, if He is welcome in their hearts.

The Anabaptist viewpoint on forgiveness echoes the words of Jesus and the early church. I recommend Johann Christoph Arnold's book "Why Forgive?" Many stories of how victims and surviving family members have forgiven the worst perpetrators, and won some of them to Christ! My favorite quote:

[i]Forgiveness is the only way out. Even if our adversary chooses to remain in the darkness, that should not hold us back. If we leave the door open for him, he may even follow us into the light.[/i]


Mrs. Fred


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Mrs. Fred

 2004/7/15 19:50Profile
Chancellor
Member



Joined: 2004/7/13
Posts: 19


 Re:

Many of the people I deal with in the kind of ministry that I do are those who object to people giving answers to life's problems from God's word. They tend not to want Biblical solutions but some Christianized form of psychology that doesn't really hold them accountable for anything and doesn't really demand anything of them. So, naturally, when someone objects to "theology," I have to question what exactly they're looking for.

As for the "how" of forgiveness, that's where it's important for us to understand what it meant for God to forgive us. The Lord casts our sins into the sea and remembers them no more.

There's a Bible-based 12-step program (a contradiction in terms) up in Niagara Falls that, at the end of each meeting, has a phrase they say. This phrase, I think, is a good place to start:

Quote:
"Forgive it, forget it, and don't go back and get it!"


_________________
Chancellor Carlyle Roberts, II

 2004/7/15 20:21Profile
Gideons
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 474
Virginia

 Re: Brother Lars

Brother Lars,

As someone who was literally consumed by the fruits of unforgiveness (i.e. depression, bitterness, etc.), I found a book called "Total Forgiveness" by R.T. Kendall very scripturally solid and both convicting and encouraging at the same time. The Holy Spirit removed this emotional cancer of sorts from my heart but it was certainly one of the most painful periods of my life.

Here's a quote from Brother R.T. that sums up what forgiveness will do in our hearts "Relinquishing bitterness is an open invitation for the Holy Spirit to give you His peace, His joy, and the knowledge of His will." I think the most painful thing I sought repentance for which I honestly didn't know until I started praying about and seeking the Lord earnestly was that much of this bitterness I had toward this particular person was passed into my relationship to Jesus.

In other words, I needed to forgive someone for a very serious offense but I had unconsciously blamed God for what had happened as well.

I don't profess to know what is in this brother's heart but this particular sin causes significant harm to our relationship with God, as well as each other.


_________________
Ed Pugh

 2004/7/15 21:25Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Thank you for replies thus far



Dear friends,
Thank you for answers and hints.

This abusing grand father is now under police scrutiny – the perpetrator has been stopped. His son – father of the two girls, is together with his wife leaving the stage of anger and direct bitterness and are working on ways to reach out to the grand father. They are all Christians.

Brother Keith explains what I did not state: “I believe the "Theologically conversant but spiritually ignorant" would include those people very well versed in the Bible and Biblical Theology, very skilled in teaching and discussing even the very complicated issues in Theology, but when it comes to some basic spiritual application, like having to forgive someone who did something terrible to them, they find that all their knowledge doesn't really help them. I believe that would only be the case if they hadn't really been absorbing the Scriptures into their lives, but nonetheless it does seem there are more than a few people who fit this description”.

Mrs Fred reminds me about a book I have forgotten to buy. Friends at the Bruderhof fellowship offered it to me several years ago. I have not read anything authored by Eberhard Arnold’s son.
“The Anabaptist viewpoint on forgiveness echoes the words of Jesus and the early church. I recommend Johann Christoph Arnold's book "Why Forgive?" Many stories of how victims and surviving family members have forgiven the worst perpetrators, and won some of them to Christ! My favorite quote:
Forgiveness is the only way out. Even if our adversary chooses to remain in the darkness, that should not hold us back. If we leave the door open for him, he may even follow us into the light.”

“Chancellor”. My very first assignment as an interpreter was related to a former homosexual some 25 years ago. We both worked with Teen Challenge - he in the U.S. and I here in Sweden. I was impressed indeed with his attitude which was very soft but at the same time to the point. He knew how to apply the instructions of the Lord and how to carry a solid testimony regarding the presence of the Spirit working within forming Christ. It is this combination we seldom find.
I have been looking at your web site, and I want you to know that I have gathered enough experience over the years as a counsellor to rejoice over miracles of the kind you represent.


_________________
Lars Widerberg

 2004/7/16 2:04Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Thank you for replies thus far

Lars
A personal testimony.
Many years ago someone behaved in a way which betrayed my trust and caused serious problems in the church where I was 'leader'. I came to the Lord frequently with this issue and forgave him. As soon as I rose from my knees the memories flooded back in and I was crippled again. This went on for some time. In the end, in desperation, I climbed a hill at night a long way from any houses and prayed again. This time when I rose from my knees I stood on the hilltop and with all my strength I shouted "I forgive him". Somehow in that cry I put my whole being into that declaration and the spell was broken. My cry was 30 years ago, and today I cannot remember what it was that that man did or said.

In a way my action was instinctive. I was not following a procedure. I know those involved will need careful counsel and pastoral care, but I repeat my previous comment... They will need a miracle, but God is able.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/7/16 4:06Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Further definition



Further definition of what we are after:
We want some substantial to read about how to express forgiveness, attitudes and activity, I order to restore the perpetrator. Something to read and ponder and to pray over.
We disqualify shallowness, we are looking for the real thing, the operational thing – restoration of a large family, many victims of various orders and their families and friends.
The father is ready to enter together with his wife into a priestly ministry.
Brother Art Katz describes this kind of need in a perfect way. W want to move into its reality.
Katz has the theology for it – we want to see it in operation. Pray with us.
Lars


_________________
Lars Widerberg

 2004/7/16 9:04Profile





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