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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : It's Revival Or Ruin???

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As Zac Poonen, says here the hypocrites defile the house of God. I don’t want to see anyone fall away but it will happen and it is God’s way of cleansing the church. These are people who are in the church, heard the word of God, tasted the heavenly gift and trodden it under their feet will eventually fall away. They are defiling God’s people and our children with their carnality and all of their worldly baggage that they are dragging into the church of God. I see it everyday with my own two eyes. All of the hip hop music, break dancing, Halloween, witchcraft, hatred, division, strife, idolatry, adultery, fornicating, mockery of holiness, sleazy attire, parties, false teachings, and mishandling of God’s money will all come to an end. These are mockers and God haters. They never had the love of God in their heart.

“…Many churches today claim to be "New Testament churches", because of certain distinctive features like "believer's baptism", "speaking in tongues", "praise and worship", "weekly breaking of bread" etc., But none of these are the identification mark of a truly New Testament church. The mark of a true New Testament Church is this that God is in its midst as a consuming fire - a fire that terrifies sinners and makes hypocrites tremble.

[b]I am not surprised when carnal people leave our church, or fall away - because this is proof that the consuming fire is still burning in our midst. When hypocrites and carnal people leave a church, that is a good sign. It is a sign that God is working in power in such a church. It is when spiritually-minded, God-fearing people leave a church, that the church should sit up and take stock of its position. That would be akin to the best students leaving a school and joining another in the same locality. Then the first school should ask itself, "Why did they leave?".

If the fire is not burning in our midst, then many people will continue to remain with us.[/b] It is still possible that there are haughty, insincere hypocrites in our churches even today. I don't know, because I am not God! But I am absolutely certain of one thing: As long as God is present in our midst as a consuming fire, one day or the other, all such hypocrites will be exposed, if they do not repent and set matters right. There is no partiality with God - He will even expose hypocritical elders, as we see in Revelation 2 and 3.

God is longsuffering, but His patience will come to an end one day.[b] The one who defiles the church of God will himself be destroyed by God - that is certain (1 Cor.3:17). God does not remove those who are imperfect, or those defeated by sin. But He removes the insincere….”[/b]

~Zac Poonen

“…It is the sovereign rule that is going to solve and settle this whole problem. You cannot say that the Kingdom of Heaven or the Kingdom of God is like that which is pictured in this parable - an awful mixture. It is not. The Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Heaven, is one thing, and only the sovereign rule of God can bring out into clearness what is of God.

But that will happen as we go on. We can trust the sovereign rule. That is very practical: it works like this. There are those who are truly of God, of Heaven; and then there are those who come in - who perhaps sing the hymns, use the phraseology, carry on the same way, associate with those of the Kingdom; but there is a difference. Deep down, they are really "not of us". They are just imitations; they are not real, not the genuine thing. We may discern, as these men discerned, that there is something here that is not the same thing, something that is foreign, that is alien and strange. What are we going to do? Had we better turn them out, tell them to go?

No, no! Go on long enough, and they will go of themselves. The two things will be self-manifested, and it will be quite easy in the long run. [b]"They went out from us", said John, "...that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19). This is a heavenly principle, you see - there is a manifestation. It is difficult to endure patiently those people who you sense have not, as we say, the root of the matter in them - who are just camp-followers. But, as with the mixed multitude that left Egypt with Israel, time and testing will find them out. This is the way if the Kingdom, the sovereignty, operates, and it calls for much faith, and much patience….”[/b]

~T. Austin Sparks

 2008/10/20 5:56

Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132

 with all due respect

:-( :-( :-(

I know you probably don't mean or intend to come off sounding incensitive to the falling away of others, but that's how you come across to the reader, using quotes from others as well as your personal understanding of scripture to justify a position inorder to see spiritual awakening/revival happen. It almost sounds as if you rejoice to see the falling away of that which you precieve to be chaff.
History has some lessons to teach you, there were those who wouldnt claim Christ and were carnal by early church standards who at the moment of choice to die for Christ did, and by all accounts the early church accepted them as having died for the gospels sake, on the other hand there are recorded instances of those who were leaders who at that moment failed and lived on in this life by rejecting martydom. Some were latter restored to the church.

Romans says not to judge anything before the time, and since none of us are either God or Angels whose job it is to reap, I guess it would be wise to be silent about eternal things when it comes to the damning of a soul to hell. Sound a trumpet we must!But let it come with pleadings of mercy to God, like Moses who pleaded for Israel even to the exclusion of his own soul for all eternity, or the apostle Paul who did like wise!


 2008/10/21 1:28Profile


I am looking forward to the enemy--satan--leaving God's sanctuary among God's people. A seperation has to take place and it will.

My husband had a vision awhile back when we first started attending this church. He saw in his vision something that looked like a huge ape on top of the church building and he was pounding his chest in victory. Shortly after a minister fell.

Now we are seeing problems in this church we never had back then and it's spiritual warfare but the enemy is defeated and God will get the victory. God has called us to be prophets and to speak out against what we see in the church and we will continue to do so wherever He calls us.

[b]"...Defiling The Church With Impurity[/b]

The spirit of the antichrist seeks to "defile the holy place" (v.31). There is tremendous opposition to the message of holiness and righteousness from Satan. The spirit of the antichrist also encourages "disregard of the covenant" (v.32).
The new covenant promises a life of victory over sin. But the antichrist tells believers that it is impossible to live such a life.
The main reason why our own ministry as a church has been opposed in the last two decades throughout India, has been because we have preached holiness and righteousness. We have proclaimed the fact that "sin need not be master
over us any longer" (Rom.6:14), that "those who love money cannot love God" (Lk.16:13), that "those who are angry with and despise others are guilty enough to go to hell" (Matt.5:22), that "those who lust after women with their eyes are also in danger of perishing in hell" (Matt.5:28,29), etc., Since these words of Jesus are unpalatable to the vast majority of
believers, they have opposed us.
We have stood against the unScriptural salary system for Christian workers (something that was unheard of in the first century) and the unScriptural begging for money that characterises Christian work in India. This has earned us the wrath of those who make a living through their preaching, and who build their private empires thereby.
We have also stood against personality-cults in the church, popery, denominationalism, Western domination of churches in India, and the unhealthy dependence on Western leadership that has hindered the development of the church here.
This has infuriated the cultistic groups.
Satan's aim is to corrupt God's sanctuary in one way or the other. He places his "forces" (Dan.11:31) within the church, in order to destroy God's work from within. The history of Christendom reveals how these forces have succeeded in corrupting group after group, and movement after movement, through all these 20 centuries.
The main reason for the church's failure has been that the watchmen whom God appointed in the church did not remain alert and awake. How did Satan succeed in putting these watchmen to sleep? In some cases, by making them afraid to
speak the truth lest they offend some people - especially the rich and the influential. In some other cases, by making them wife-pleasers, and lovers of money and of good food.
In some cases, the watchmen themselves got tired of facing constant opposition to their message, as they sought to maintain God's standards in the church. And so they toned down their messages to please men.
In Hebrews 12:3, we are told to consider Jesus "Who endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that we may not grow weary and lose heart". Who were these sinners who opposed Jesus? They were not the prostitutes or the murderers or the thieves in Israel. Nor were they the Romans or the Greeks. No. The sinners who opposed Jesus constantly, were the Bible-thumping preachers and religious leaders in Israel. They were jealous of Jesus and finally
killed Him.
If we follow Jesus, we will face opposition from the same group of people even today. Our greatest opposition will come from the preachers who have lowered God's standards and corrupted the church. These will be Satan's chief agents to
oppose us. It is very easy for us to get tired of facing this constant opposition, and to get discouraged.

Satan tries to "wear down the saints of God through persecution" (Dan.7:25). The only way to overcome is by looking at the example of Jesus Who faced opposition constantly, until He was killed by His enemies. We too must be willing to "be faithful unto death". Any preacher who is unwilling to face opposition until the end of his life, will end up as an ear-tickling
preacher, who will "flatter people to win them over to his side" (Dan.11:32), and end his days as a compromising Balaam.
Our calling as a church is to preserve God's standards at any cost in our midst. We have to be on guard against the forces of the antichrist at all times. Paul had preserved the church in Ephesus in purity, by God's grace, during the three years that he was there. But he told the elders when he was leaving that he was certain that corruption would come in, after his departure (Acts 20:29-31). And sure enough, it did, as we read in the Second letter to the Ephesians (Rev.2:1-5)....

~Zac Poonen [url=]Warnings to the Church For the Last Days[/url]

 2008/10/21 7:38

Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


I have seen the affects of one godly person in very carnal church setting. Generally speaking Light enters a room and the darkness dissappears. These days we have people who would rather stand outside a dark room and command the darkness to leave, it doesn't work that way. The Word of God says one will put a thousand to flight and two ten thousand, the trouble here is that most don't realy believe this to be true when it comes to spiritual warfare, thats why so few churches have any real life in them. Faith is conditioned by conscience. The Word of God says what things soever we desire pray believing and we shall recieve, our trouble is that we always pre-condition our prayers with false humility, selfish motives, and doubt clothed in religious speech. I can appreciate Bro. Poones ministry, but he lives in an area where he sees from afar the american church. I have close friends who live in Africa and come here every two years to raise support and preach the gospel and minister in the churches. Where they go the Lord is pleased to move with power and those places of worship are changed, sometimes it's short lived like the fading glory on Moses face but for a wonderful!

I would say if your husband had such a revelation by dream that if he didn't take care of business right away than he is in sin. Here also the Word of God says what so ever "things" you bind on earth are bound in heaven...and this being written twice with two different contexts as if the Lord really wanted to drive home a point. Even the saints in the early churches had power in resistance over the the very throne of satan. They overcame him by the blood of the lamb and the word of thier testamony and they loved not thier lives unto death. I would say that the lack of power in your church can be found in a critical spirit rather than the very presence of God in the midst of those who proclaim to be prophets bring forth the "Word of the Lord". In all your getting, get unction because the Word of God in truth is a two edged sword able to divide asunder the bone and marrow and is a discerner of the thoughts and the intents of the hearts. Give that kind of word to your church, than you wont need to quote the woahs of others because youll see first hand the Lord of glory at work.


 2008/10/21 8:53Profile

Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530

 Re: with all due respect

I know you probably don't mean or intend to come off sounding incensitive to the falling away of others, but that's how you come across to the reader

The old hymn says, "Oft our hearts are filled with sadness, for the masses bound for hell." and [praying] "Bring awakening to the millions, who are held by Satan's power. May thy people catch a vision, of the lateness of the hour."

I agree with dohzman. That is the vision we need. The lateness of the hour. Blessed are those who weep, Jesus said.

 2008/10/21 19:02Profile


So you would rather have the church stay carnal???

 2008/10/22 3:38

Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


Nobody is talking about a church staying carnal. What is being addressed is what appears from reading your posts about those who are carnal is that you almost take a certain joy in the actual falling away or backslidding out of the church assembly of such individuals. Its almost as if you take pleasure in the thought of a mass exodus inorder to see the presence of God in the great congregation. Jesus called the individual believer to be salt and light, thats a full time life committment, even at the gathering of the saints. If the Lord is showing that the place where you attend is full of carnal people, or shallow christians, or even immature christians, than He has done so for a reason. It than becomes the responsibility of you and your husband to find out why this knowledge has come to you from the Lord and what He in His wisdom would have to to "DO". Notice I didnt say to speak. Actions speak louder than words. The trouble here is that many super spiritual saints want to keep thier hands clean and not get involved beyond a "Thus saith the Lord". Roll your sleaves up and get involved, sweat, cry, moan, pray and labor for those you intend to see become spiritual. Seek the Lord on a course of action Jud 1:22 And on some have mercy, who are in doubt;
Jud 1:23 and some save, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
BTW these two verses are loaded with action words.


 2008/10/22 7:49Profile


I agree with Zac Poonen:

"..We read in Scripture of yet another ministry - and this is the exact opposite of this "Daniel-ministry" - a "Lucifer-ministry".
In Revelation 12:4, we read that Lucifer succeeded in getting millions of angels to follow him in his rebellion against God.
Why did God permit Lucifer to lead so many angels astray? So that heaven could be purged of all the disgruntled and
rebellious angels. Their evil hearts would not have been exposed, had not a Lucifer arisen in their midst to lead them in
their rebellion against God.
And so, even today, God will allow brothers and sisters to have a Lucifer-ministry in the church. They will be permitted by
God to go around from house to house backbiting, accusing, telling lies and speaking evil, so that all the disgruntled,
rebellious and worldly believers in the church can be identified, exposed, gathered together and taken out of the church -
so that the Body of Christ can be purified.
[b]God will not stop those who are engaged in such a Lucifer-ministry from moving around the church, any more than He
stopped the original Lucifer in heaven, millions of years ago. That is Divine wisdom.
We are never to fight with such brothers and sisters either. God Himself will preserve the church, and at the right time,
He will destroy those who defile the church (1 Cor.3:17). But God is long-suffering and waits many years before He
judges - because He does not want anyone to perish, but wants everyone to repent. In Noah's time, He waited 120
years. But when God does judge, His judgment will be severe.[/b]
It is foolish therefore to boast that a church has never had a split. There was a split in heaven itself, among the angels,
right at the beginning. Such splits are necessary, for "there must be divisions, so that those who are approved (by God)
can become manifest" (1 Cor.11:19).
[b]The light has to be separated from the darkness. That is not a split. It is a cleansing. Without it, God's testimony on earth
will be corrupted.
All of us can have either a Daniel-ministry - building unity and fellowship in the church - or a Lucifer-ministry - sowing

 2008/10/22 8:53

Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


I think what you need to do is stop listening to people like Poonen and go back to the bible and see what exactly it is that Jesus said, btw---He's God,. That would be a good place to start. Let God do the sifting. The apostle Paul lays down good principles for church ethics too.


 2008/10/23 6:15Profile

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