SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
See Opportunities to Serve with SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Re: Losing our salvation or not

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 )
PosterThread
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3348
Texas

 Re:

You know my Bible says Jesus died for all my sins, if he died for all my sins, I am guessing that is all my sins unless you can find a stipulation were he did not die for a certain sin, if he did die for all my sins, then bottom line what sin is it the blood did not cover? what sin can I commit that would cause me to lose my salvation? This is my personal opinion on losing your salvation, if you think you can lose you salvation well maybe "you" can, and if you do feel that way you just diluted the blood IMO, for me personally I cannot possibly lose my Salvation and have never in my life even been concerned about losing it.


_________________
Bill

 2008/10/25 11:23Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
This is the same lame attempt and a poor way of trying to explain election. It would be better to say I can't explain it. We should be placing some responsibility on man, but no, we had rather blame God only for choosing not to elect the damned.



I ask only that you read it again. It does place responsibility on man. No one will be in hell that does not deserve it.

You say it is a poor way of explaining election. I say it is a poor way of explaining your view of election, but that it is the right, proper, and true way of explaining election as held by those embracing the doctrines of grace. I say this all in love. Not to change you…only to inform.

A lot of folks view God as sitting in a boat, surrounded by people floating in a sea of torment, looking to Him for salvation. They believe the Calvinist portrays God as “selecting” only a few, while the others cry out to Him with their arms reaching out, waiting for Him to save them from the flames. Yet, He goes right on by, ignoring their cries and pleas, because they are of the non-elect.

This is not the Calvinist view at all.

I will continue with the “sea of people” analogy, but keep in mind, the Calvinist does not see the people as innocent and reaching out to God. The Calvinist sees these people as choosing to remain in their unbelief. They are not calling out to God as He passes them by; they are giving Him the finger. They are enemies of the cross. The true state of fallen man.

This is not a picture showing an unloving God. It is a picture showing a just and holy God.

When attempting to understand the doctrines of grace one must start at the beginning. Man is ether totally depraved, DEAD in sin, unable to lend a hand in the process of bringing himself back to life…or he is not.

The Calvinist views man as being dead after the fall and that man is unable to bring himself back to life. It is a work of God alone.

The Arminian views man as merely inured by the fall. He reaches out to God while God reaches out to him. A group or team effort.

If I believed man was only injured by the fall, I would believe the Calvinist view was indeed horrific. But I do not see this in scripture. I see man as dead in his sins and transgressions.


I only post this to help clarify, not to debate, argue, or persuade.

Grace and peace my friend


_________________
TJ

 2008/10/25 11:42Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Many of the early church fathers so called, have in their writings many things to say about people that "lose salvation" in fact i am surprised to see how they viewed it. They believed a saved person could end up lost, but they did not live in fear, because they knew God was a loving Father and could keep them.

But they believed equally that mans free will and Gods sovereignty in salvation was both equally true without being opposites. We have been fooled by Luther and the reformers that it has to be either or.

The bible teaches both, the book that made me see it crystal clear was David Bercots "will the real heretics please stand up". One of the best things i have ever read. Highly recomended


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/10/25 11:51Profile
refrigbob
Member



Joined: 2007/9/12
Posts: 15
Buffalo, NY

 Re:

"The wonder of grace is that He decreed to save any. If He was not obliged to save any, then He certainly was not obliged to save all."

I should not even respond here - but I can't help it!
I will not use the term "obliged" in the sense as I as a human would be obliged to render a service to someone once someone payed me as in "I owe them". No, in that sense God owes no man anything.
But if God is a God of Love and mercy - then by His own definision He is obliged to be true to His own character and His word. He cannot lie, cheat, decieve, etc. So there are things He cannot do. If He is love, (and the supreme act of the cross proves this), and he is no respector of persons, and His word declairs "whosoever will may come", and He is not willing that any perish, and he commands all men to repent and believe the Gospel and he holds sin accountable (so by implication we have choice to obey or rebell, accept or reject Him,) - I mean - how do you square this? Can we take the word at face value or not? Can a child understand the Gospel or not?
No one yet has answered my question, how do you love and trust a God who decrees others to hell when they can't help what they do,can't even ask for help because they don't even know what to ask for - they are "dead", they don't even know they need help, and were created such that they were doomed before they were born and no matter what they can or cannot do - their eternal state is and was fixed. Created for the slaughter - there is no way aroud this no matter what the dance - yet we are to "wonder" at the fact that He saves some?
The word election in itself implies that something must be elected. When we elect a politician, we do so because we weigh the words and deeds of the person and make a choice based on what we know. What is so far fetched in beleiving God, who knows the end from the begining "saw or sees" each person (is above and beyond time - stands outside of it since it is a creation by Him) sees the past present and future all at once - "foreknew" (a term for our understanding not His) those who would recieve the saviour- and from His point of view are the "elect" because we recieved Him. Now this may be a primitive and imperfect explanation, but it makes much more sense both scripturally and in the heart, and to reason (which God imarted to us) than the doctrine in question.
All this of God, no work of man, no boasting of man, no "works" just believing unto salvation. (To say "yes" is not works - it is a God given abilty to respond - a key elemet in love - love forced upon anyone is no love at all.) This makes sense - it is biblical and does not need a stretch of certain scriptures and no one needs a theological degree. - But somehow the doctrine in question asks it's adherants to love this God who creats billions of creatures for the "good pleasure of His will" - to torment eternally - those who can't even help themselves? - How do they do it? It boogles my mind! This was and is my original question - not debating the doctrine itself which I have now yielded to by total frustration!
God bless, Bob


_________________
Bob

 2008/10/25 16:19Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

This article by John Piper may shed some light on the subject. I have not intended to add to your confusion. I hope this article helps. Once again, I am not posting it to convince you, just show how/what others believe.

Article is found [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=25740&post_id=200219&order=0&viewmode=thread&pid=0&forum=34#200219]here[/url]

Grace and peace to you


_________________
TJ

 2008/10/25 16:46Profile
refrigbob
Member



Joined: 2007/9/12
Posts: 15
Buffalo, NY

 Re:

My Appologies: I have hy-jacked the original thread, and gone off where I did not intend to go- into debating this. As anyone can tell this subject is both like salt on a wound and a hot button both at the same time. There is realy nothing for me to read on this that will help. I have read it all, both sides of it for many years. My mind is made up as to what I believe to be true - but emotionally this topic still grabs me at times. This is something I must work out with the Lord - it may be my "thorn" - it sure feels like it at times. Again, sorry for taking this thread off track and provoking anyone with me views.
God bless, Bob


_________________
Bob

 2008/10/25 17:39Profile
Theophilus20
Member



Joined: 2008/12/1
Posts: 4
Spokane Wa

 Re:

(As theophilus20 sildes refrigbob a chillpill)
"- But somehow the doctrine in question asks it's adherants to love this God who creats billions of creatures for the "good pleasure of His will" - to torment eternally - those who can't even help themselves? - How do they do it? It boogles my mind! This was and is my original question - not debating the doctrine itself which I have now yielded to by total frustration!"
Remember; God didnot create us in a broken, lost state. That was our choice to leave his presense, and hide from his voice in our sins. God doesnt Send anyone to be "tormented eternally", thats where we are already headed by the seperation caused by Adam and Eve. God is the one extending a way out of the eternal damnation that we are already headed twards. He is the One holding His hand out (Jesus Christ) to thoes in the water who will drown without his help. Its not his fault we are broken, as if he created us broken then only picks a few.
Im not even sure if that is your point or if you are just questioning the mind boggling thought of ppl who actually have this view. Somehow I think you already get what i have just said. (I hope)

 2008/12/2 3:21Profile
Llewellyn
Member



Joined: 2005/8/5
Posts: 34
Windhoek, Namibia

 Made shipwreck of their faith

Seeing this is true, faith seem to me something that we can loose.

So let us run this race unto the end to receive the crown of life.


_________________
Llewellyn van der Merwe

 2008/12/8 15:41Profile
bobmutch
Member



Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

tjservant:
"There are very few errors and false doctrines of which the beginning may not be traced up to unsound views about the corruption of human nature. Wrong views of a disease will always bring with them wrong views of a remedy. Wrong views of the corruption of human nature will always carry with them wrong views of the grand antidote and cure of that corruption." - J.C. Ryle

Lovely quote. Could you tell me what book it is in. I Googled it up and couldn't find it.


_________________
Bob Mutch

 2008/12/8 15:57Profile





©2002-2021 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy