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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Re: Losing our salvation or not

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thesaintdan
Member



Joined: 2008/8/9
Posts: 20
Southwest England, UK

 Re: Losing our salvation or not

This is a huge topic, and I don't know if anyone can be sure they have a complete knowledge of the truth of this. A person could be convinced that it is possible or impossible to lose your own salvation but as they mature in understanding and experience of God over time their view could change.
It is our duty I think to study the bible to see what it says on this topic, from what I have read on this 'thread' a lot seems to hang on the interpretation of certain verses and passages, the bible does need to be taken as a whole and verses must be read in context or we have distortion of the truth that was intended for us.

Maybe that's why the bible teaching on this subject is somewhat fragmented - so that we could with the help of the HolySpirit come to our own conclusions as we study His word and try to live it out. Yes even living before God in fear and trembling and adoration and worship.

A housemate of mine was wondering about this and she hasn't come to a conclusion, and I havent either, somehow I think both are true - we are eternally secure, our salvation doesnt depend on us, we were regenerated by God if you study 'regeneration' you will see that our own response in conversion was due to God's sovereign work. I suppose you could argue that if God intended us to be saved by His own irresistible work then He is sure to keep us in the faith and has every intention of doing so - and who can resist his will.
Romans 9 addresses God's sovereign purpose in electing some and not electing others for eternal salvation. Sobering but true.
At the same time the bible is full of encouragement, instruction to be holy and dire warnings. It isn't a salvation of works and yet we are required 'to work out our salvation with fear and trembling' there is one work if it can be called a 'work' the work of faith which is in turn inspired by God, yet we are required to continue therein.

People can use the 'once saved always saved' slogan as an excuse to live however they please, and that I believe is a dangerous way to live, but we are called to live in order to please God, if you are truly regenerated then you will desire to live a life pleasing to God and when you sin which you will - you will likely feel terrible and run back to your saviour in full repentance - that is how true believers really feel...

 2008/9/27 5:31Profile
bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

Amen, i agree with you. This is a big topic, but you hit on the head, that God regenerates us and the bible promises that he will the finish the work in us. For an example my pastor fred aten. He flew airplanes in world war 2 and him and eleven others in florida ended up crashing the plane. 10 died, one was paralyzed and my pastor before they hit he told God that if he saved him from this that we would do anything God wanted him to do. He came out with only scratches. For 18 years he did nothing with the Lord, but the Lord remembered that day that he promised and he called him and finally saved him 18 years later. My pastor then went to school at clearcreek bible college in kentucky and then he got a degree. He has been a minister for 40 years now in a church in willow springs illinois. He is 90 years old and this man is moving like he is 60 or 65. The Lord finished what he wanted in this man from the beginning.

 2008/9/27 13:50Profile
thesaintdan
Member



Joined: 2008/8/9
Posts: 20
Southwest England, UK

 Re:

Great story when God moves He moves and if he has sovereignly elected someone then I think they are sure to be saved.
The question is - is a person elect or do they just appear to be saved?

 2008/10/12 16:03Profile
refrigbob
Member



Joined: 2007/9/12
Posts: 15
Buffalo, NY

 Re:

"Romans 9 addresses God's sovereign purpose in electing some and not electing others for eternal salvation. Sobering but true."

Hi Dan, this is something that I admit has haunted me for many years. I don't personaly beleive this to be true as stated here since it is double predestination. I don't write here to argue verses on this I have read them all and heard them all argued to many times. I just want to ask someone who believes this and try to understand something - If God saves some irregardless of the persons responce to Gods love offered or any personal choice to submit to Christ, and damns others who cannot but choose otherwise, how can a person truely love such a God? You can choose to by an act of the will, but can you really trust a God who creates a life - billions of them for that matter - merely for the purpose of His good pleasure to send to eternal torment for something they could not but do by nature? Even if you, or I were or are the elect on these terms - there may be some gratitude that we are plucked out - but knowing that others were passed by - without hope before being born and created for the slaughter - how does one reconcile that in our makeup or inborn sense of justice? I know we are fallen - but we still learn basic principles in the Word of God of right and wrong, sowing and reaping, mercy forgiveness and grace. We do have a conscience that is a means given by God to warn us. We have that "feeling" if you will when we hear of a rape or murder, or of a child molester - that gives rise within us a disgust and desire for punishment and justice. How do you turn that "off" when it is applied to God under this topic in this context? Can anyone really do that - if you think this all the way through to it's basic concept? How does one find any comfort or deep abiding love or real trust without such thoughts haunting the soul? I am not asking to debate scripture here or go over any doctrine. I am asking only on a human level this is a real issue for me. I have struggled with this on and off for many years - I can go for months and not think about it, then I read a statement like this or others like it and it hits a nerve and the feelings come and it disturbs me for days. Many times I must go back and read something like David's Servants articals on this topic, or one of many others to bring me back to what I hold to be true in proper context - kind of like a slap that wakes me up and sets me back on my feet. Again, this is to not to start an arguement, this is an honest question I have. Even when I say to myself when I get into these moods about this topic, "Lord - I will love you and serve you even if this is true" - and I would - and I do - but it is by choice and will during this state, and has no real emotion heart and soul to it while I go through these periods. It is mechanical only untill I get past the depression of it all. Please take this as an honest question and not devisive coment - I am really tring to understand his from another perspective. I honestly think I will drift in and out of this untill the day I die. As I said, although I do not think this is an accurate portrayal of God's character and dealings with man, somehow the torment I went through over the years so many times in my mind over these doctrines it always seems to come back now and then. I never get as low as I once did over this but it does catch me off guard and get me.
I kind of look at this perticular theology (I am trying not to put a name to it) like an explanation by Job's freinds when Job needed answers - the freinds meant to help, there answers even had scriptual support and they made sense to listen to, but in the end the Lord said they had it all wrong! I think we will all face that truth some day about some of the things we beleive - self included.
God bless, posted in love, Bob


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Bob

 2008/10/24 20:17Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

refrigbob wrote:

Quote:


If God saves some irregardless of the persons responce to Gods love offered or any personal choice to submit to Christ, and damns others who cannot but choose otherwise, how can a person truely love such a God?




Brother, I know there are some who believe that "God predestines people for damnation", but simply stated, that is not true.

Don't loose sleep over this heresy. Loose sleep over the people that we are praying about...that they may accept the free gift of the Lord offered to all people from the cross.


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Christiaan

 2008/10/24 20:36Profile
refrigbob
Member



Joined: 2007/9/12
Posts: 15
Buffalo, NY

 Re:

Brother Miccah, I hope I made it clear that I do not beleive this, yet for some reason this doctrine and its implications somehow got itself in me a long time ago - it just is a dart that seems to stick me at times - not sure how else to explain it any better. I have been saved almost 30 years and I do serve the Lord with all my heart. We go into the streets on weekends witnessing and praying for the lost - I understand what you are saying about what to loose sleep over. I try to avoid this subject these days for the most part. I was not trying to debate the issue or doctrine itself although that is difficult, more just trying to understand how someone could beleive it and have any peace or comfort in it - I may have not gotten that across very well. I have argued with others and posted over it in the past - I was not trying to do this here. I am just perplexed on how others can harmonize within them selves this doctrine with our sense of right, justice, and knowledge of the total of scriptural portrayal of God and His dealings with man - I can't even if I try - maybe I think to much!
God bless, Bob


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Bob

 2008/10/24 21:31Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1262


 Re:

Brother Bob I believe I understand what you are saying.

I think it is the immaturity of Christians in their understanding of Romans Chapter 9. I don’t think they realized the implications of what they are really stating. It is clear that God shows mercy on whom he wills to show mercy. We should desire mercy and not only for ourselves but also for others. The fact they can not explain is the reason God shows mercy to some and not to others. The reason he also elects some and not others and it is not as some would imply that he just chooses not to save them or love them.

God loves all His creation because God is Love. I repeat the bible says that God is Love. God has made it clear to us that there had to be the sacrifice of His Son in order to appease the wrath of God against us because of our sin. We can not save ourselves; the Son had to be sacrificed for us. We could not keep the law or be righteous enough to be saved from sin. God had to give His only begotten Son for us that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish. Faith and repentance is essential to regeneration.

Many are missing the boat on this one because no where in the scriptures does God ever imply that He wants any to perish but all to come to repentance. God can not save anyone one apart from faith in Christ Jesus. The bible is clear that we are saved by grace through faith and that this is not of ourselves but it is the gift of God. The bible says that God wants to give this gift of salvation to everyone if they would only believe in His Son.

When some people read what I have just wrote which is the bible truth they are so quick to jump to their God side so to speak and say that I am claiming that man has something to do with it and therefore I am not giving God all the Glory. What they fail to see is that I am only stating what the bible says that we are to believe in Jesus Christ. It is all from God because God has stated to us how He will save us and it is not of ourselves but of the Lord. Only God knows who the elect really are and we can never really know this because we are not God. When we see the evidence of the Holy Ghost in a person then we can say they are the elect but until we see the evidence in manifestation then we really can’t say. We are never to think that some can’t be the elect because that would be going against the Word of God and His Love for all mankind and His willingness to save all mankind. The problem many people have is in their head, because they are trying to shrink God’s foreknowledge down to size of their little brain.

Brother and sisters who love God don’t never let the devil tell you that someone might not be one of God’s elect from the beginning. God is the beginning and the end. When you see a person who is lost then pray for them and point them to the one who is more than willing to save them if only they will believe. God is the only one with infinite knowledge and He expects us to want everybody to be saved.

Blessings to all!

 2008/10/24 23:07Profile
refrigbob
Member



Joined: 2007/9/12
Posts: 15
Buffalo, NY

 Re:

Thanks for the responce Bro Banks. I wonder how many souls have been damaged, or went through life uncertain of Gods love, tormented by thoughts that God would "pass by" multitudes even if they knew they were themselves were saved. Or I wonder how many are really saved, yet can never seem to get over that they may not be the elect? I can't help but ask this because - well -I already explained what I go through even though deep in my heart this is and must be false. (It seems I hear at times something like the well known tactic - "hath God really said? and begin to question what I know to be true - a weak link in me as I tryed to get across already) - I also often wonder, why so many sincere wonderful gifted men, many preachers over the last several hundered years latched on to this and preached it - many I am convinced desired the truth. Yet the same can be said to those who oppose the doctrine - many good teachers and preachers take the opposing view.(I have asked the Lord about this - why so many beleive this if it false - another words, can numbers be an indication or do numbers mean one should go with the majority? - then I beleive I heard millions of sincere people believe in the pope and catholic doctrines - does that mean they are right because of sincerity or numbers?) It seems to me to be such a stark contrast in who God is - it is utterly irreconcilable. It is two different characters and natures - no way around it. The very defense of Gods character that is being protected actually paints Him as a monster no matter how complex or wordy the attempt to justify the position - a God who asks men to love and lay down their lives for others (which the Lord Jesus did for mankind and we are to follow in His footsteps)leaves the non elect to perish in eternal torment with no possible hope from before the foundation of the world! How could this be? - or to my original intent of posting on this - how can anyone truely love or trust such a God? I just cannot get it or understand this and probably never will. I guess I am beginning to beat a dead horse and better move on! - God bless, Bob


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Bob

 2008/10/25 8:38Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
The very defense of Gods character that is being protected actually paints Him as a monster no matter how complex or wordy the attempt to justify the position - a God who asks men to love and lay down their lives for others (which the Lord Jesus did for mankind and we are to follow in His footsteps)leaves the non elect to perish in eternal torment with no possible hope from before the foundation of the world! How could this be?



The following in an excerpt from an article by Colin Maxwell (The capital letters are in the article)



CALVINISTS DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MEN OWE THEIR DAMNATION PURELY TO THE DECREE OF GOD WITHOUT ANY REFERENCE TO MAN'S OWN SIN:

Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that there is such a thing as predestination from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) However some Arminians perceives that the Calvinist thinks that all men were viewed by God as being in a kind of state of neutrality and that He arbitrarily decreed that one would go to Heaven whilst another would go to Hell. This is not so. When God made His sovereign choice before time began, He viewed the whole human race as fallen in sin and so there were no neutrals. He could have left us all to be damned because of our sin and saved none. The wonder of grace is that He decreed to save any. If He was not obliged to save any, then He certainly was not obliged to save all.


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TJ

 2008/10/25 9:21Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1262


 Re:

Quote:

tjservant wrote:
Quote:


The following in an excerpt from an article by Colin Maxwell (The capital letters are in the article)



CALVINISTS DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MEN OWE THEIR DAMNATION PURELY TO THE DECREE OF GOD WITHOUT ANY REFERENCE TO MAN'S OWN SIN:

Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that there is such a thing as predestination from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) However some Arminians perceives that the Calvinist thinks that all men were viewed by God as being in a kind of state of neutrality and that He arbitrarily decreed that one would go to Heaven whilst another would go to Hell. This is not so. When God made His sovereign choice before time began, He viewed the whole human race as fallen in sin and so there were no neutrals. He could have left us all to be damned because of our sin and saved none. The wonder of grace is that He decreed to save any. If He was not obliged to save any, then He certainly was not obliged to save all.




This is the same lame attempt and a poor way of trying to explain election. It would be better to say I can't explain it. We should be placing some responsibility on man, but no, we had rather blame God only for choosing not to elect the damned.

 2008/10/25 11:01Profile





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