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Spitfire
Member



Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


 The American Dream

Hey Ya'll! Long time, no see. I felt compelled to come here to SI and write this morning on a subject that has been on my heart for a long time. It's "THE AMERICAN DREAM". I went to the internet this morning and saw a speech posted by Michelle Obama. I clicked on it and listened to a portion of it. She said, America is a place where you can make "it" if you try. What is it? She was talking about the American Dream.

I googled "What is the American Dream?" and this was the answer I got through Wikopedia...



[i]The American Dream is belief in the freedom that allows all citizens and residents[1] of the United States to achieve their goals in life through hard work. Today, it often refers to one's material prosperity, which is dependent upon one's abilities and work ethic, and not on a rigid class structure. Although the phrase's meaning has evolved over the course of American history, for some people, it is the opportunity to achieve greater material prosperity than was possible in their countries of origin, for others, it is the opportunity for their children to grow up and receive an education and its consequent career opportunities, for still others, it is the opportunity to make individual choices without the constraints of class, caste, religion, race, or ethnic group.[/i]

I don't have much time this morning, but I just want to get this little conversation going. I once heard a man say, "The kingdom of this world is the kingdom of self-preservation, but the kingdom of God is the Kingdom of Self-Denial."-Ray Hughes

I sooooo believe this little truth (or the lack of it) is one of satan's biggest tools in his arsenal. Satan is so cunning and so powerful that he found the achilles heel of all peoples and that's where he struck. Self-ish-ness. Then, he went to the church and began to agree with God with an, ever so slight, twist. "God loves you. He wants to give you abundant life. He wants to take you to the Promised Land. He wants you to be happy. He wants to give you the desires of your heart. You are his child just like Jesus. You deserve everything heaven has to offer and that is alot!...and on and on it goes to the point that the gospel has had a little bit of the world mixed in, day after day, year after year, till now, you've got these so-called Christians who know nothing about suffering. When one little thing goes wrong in their life they start rebuking the devil. The devil, the devil, the devil. They think the devil causes everything bad and God causes everything good and God and the devil are like two withches fighting with their magic trying to undo what the other does. It's disgusting.

I say, The American Dream is a lie. I'm sure there is a degree of it that is true, but, because of the spirit behind it, it's a lie. It isn't from God.

 2008/8/26 6:43Profile









 Re: The American Dream

Most Americans would include a certain degree of materialism in what they would refer to as "The American Dream". But I think the American Dream is defined by each individual.

To me, the American Dream means you are free to acheive as much or as little as you want. You are not judged by who your father was, but by who you are. In many countries, such as India where there is the "caste system", if you are born poor you will remain poor. It's extremely difficult to get out of whatever level of society you were born into.

The Olympics just took place. Do you realize that most of those Chinese athletes didnt have a choice? They were chosen as children by the government, and then groomed for the Olympics. They can't just decide one day they don't want to do it anymore. They were saying one night that one of the girls on the swim team asked for a weekend off, and her coach was irrate asking her why she needed a weekend off. The girls response was she hadnt seen her parents in 12 years!

The American Dream is that we can be or do whatever our personal abilities are capable of. I'll never be a brain surgeon. That's not my goal. But I am who I am because God led me down this path and I followed... but the government did not dictate to me what I was going to be.

The American Dream is that I have chosen to be a disciple of Jesus Christ, and I have that freedom to make that choice without interference from the government.

The American Dream is that my wife and I produced 4 mighty warrior/boys, and the government did not step in and force my wife to have 3 abortions because the national quota is only 1 child per family... like in China.

I love how Americans on this forum belittle America for being materialistic... while we write these things on computers that cost at least $700 for low end models. Thats like the Democrats telling Americans we need to "go green" while they fly into Denver this week on private jets. 90% of the population in Africa will never even see a computer in their lifetime, not to mention ever own one. To them... if you have the means to write on this forum... you are lavishly rich.

If someone is writing on this forum... they are not living in poverty.

And thats part of the American Dream as well. Materialism is a sin. But owning personal property is not a sin. All thru the OT personal property was a sign of godliness. (Not in every case, cherry pickers) It meant that God was blessing. The OT Law had a lot to say about personal property rights. It's obvious to even the remedial of readers that God was very concerned about personal property rights.

So yes, part of the American Dream is owning personal property. I dont think that the consumerism we see today is good at all. I'm not saying that. But owning a house, owning property, seeing God bless materially as one works hard and is faithful to God is a good thing. It is a godly thing, and scripture makes that clear.

However, we need to understand that God owns it all, and we can not ever let material posessions become our God. We must be willing to give it all up to follow God. We should be using whatever it is that God has blessed us with to further His Kingdom, and not our own.

And we live in a country where we can do such things freely... without the government coming to arrest you. At least not yet anyway.

And that is the American Dream.

Krispy

 2008/8/26 7:08
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Many believe that "freedom" is the foundation on which the American dream is based. Everyone believes that this is the highest aim of man. However, if one were to look to Scripture one would find that this highest aim of man is rooted in the lie of Satan.

Scripture points to the first example of a created being seeking "freedom." Lucifer, once known as the "light bearer" and "morning star' who sought freedom from God's kingdom. God changed his name to Satan, the "adversary."

From that moment on in God's creation, the fruits of 'freedom" have been sown by the Adversary. We know that according to Scripture man is never free. He is either a seed of Satan or a bondservant of Jesus Christ. The liberty that Scripture speaks of is that which frees fallen man from the grips of the destroyer, the father of lies...

Be careful of the one who promotes "freedom" as the aim for which men should should die for in this world....


In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2008/8/26 13:16Profile









 Re:

But Jeff... you don't understand freedom as defined by the founders of this country. What you're saying is that the freedom man desires is freedom to do whatever you want to regardless of it's consequences. This is not at all the freedom that our country is founded on.

If it were, then why was the rule of law established before the Pilgrims even set foot on this continent? They drew up the Mayflower Compact, which was the first "constitution" of the US... and in it they all agreed basically on how they would govern themselves and deal with crime and punishment.

No, the freedom this country was founded on is definately not the same "freedom" rooted in rebellion towards God.

John Adams, who was an attorney (and actually defended the British soldiers accused in the so-called "Boston Masacre" wrote extensively about how in order to enjoy our freedoms we needed the rule of law.

Many of the founders of this country said repeatidly that the only way this "experiment" would work would be if the citizens of this nation adhered to the scriptures.

The freedom you speak of is not freedom at all... it's is occultic rebellion against God. Most of the founders of America were rebelling against MAN in order to freely worship God.

And many of us still hold true to that.

If it seems more spiritual to you to live under a tyrant, be my guest. I'll keep my freedom.

Krispy

 2008/8/26 14:24
Spitfire
Member



Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


 Re:

Quote:
The freedom you speak of is not freedom at all... it's is occultic rebellion against God. Most of the founders of America were rebelling against MAN in order to freely worship God.



I see your point, Krispy, but what I was referring to in "American Dream", you must admit, the definition for the majority of this world has changed. And...the reason I've even brought this whole thing up is to expose the subtle twist the entire concept has taken over time. It has polluted the gospel in America, having been blended with it as the definition of "success" that much of American Christiandom has adopted.

I can only speak for myself, but honestly, it has all but ruined me in usefulness to God. I've been years now trying to sort out the Truth from the lies. I feel defiled & still struggle with the mental pollution (double-mindedness). I hate it. It's a worse curse than many realize, to have grown up thinking a lie is the truth. For years, I've pursued the "American Dream" of success, only to discover I've been an enemy of God...Ohhhhh!

I want to say this twice...In the words of A.W. Tozer..."O Lord God Almighty, not the God of the philosophers and the wise but the God of the prophets and apostles; and better than all, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, May I express thee unblamed? They that know thee not may call upon thee as other than thou art, and so worship not thee, but a creature of their own fancy; therefore enlighten our minds that we may know thee as thou art, so that we may perfectly love thee and rightly worship thee" Prayer by A.W. Tozer

The thing that is bothering me in all this political bantering is how both sides keep "using" the talk of "the American Dream" to try to suck us in. I, for one, when I hear that phrase, just want to puke.

 2008/8/27 6:30Profile
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: The American Dream

Reply to all

If you are referring to the concept of achieving the American dream by getting a collage education and a great paying job and living happy ever after? It is a lie.

I believe there is much injustice in America and that our national commodities are being embezzled from us and controlled by monopolies that are buying up the rights of ownership from congress to all of the airways, waterways, mining and drilling, in such large segments that all but the super rich are excluded. The super rich are locking up the basic commodities for the next generation of discoveries for the benefit of the same old same olds. I see large public service companies that have failed miserable in providing service awarded ten year extensions by county commissions and the city leaders they control.


If you mean living the American dream by taking your place in this generation and forwarding the Christian principles that the American family was founded on then I say the dream is alive.

That has been our banner and shining light to the world through out our history. True Americans are conceived into a continuing family that builds our lives upon the precepts of The Holy Bible.

Were the first or second generation perfect? No. Our new nation didn’t end there but endures and will continue to endure as long as each new generation steps forward and is tempered in the forge of our Christian traditions.

I am proud to be a member of a family who has been willing to take up the mantle generation after generation never quitting, never starting over. The battle is never hopeless because we have God as our Lord.

Eddie


_________________
Eddie

 2008/8/27 9:32Profile
davym
Member



Joined: 2007/5/22
Posts: 326


 Re:

I was reading through this thread with interest and got thinking that the American Dream could easily be extended to the Western World dream. A product of capitalism I guess.

Quote:
If you are referring to the concept of achieving the American dream by getting a collage education and a great paying job and living happy ever after?



This was instilled into me as a child and is very much a bedrock of culture in the Western World. It always seemed to me as 'normal'. As I've grown in Christ,however, I've realised that He is everything, but I often get waylaid because this culture is so ingrained not only in society, but in me.

Quote:
I believe there is much injustice in America and that our national commodities are being embezzled from us and controlled by monopolies that are buying up the rights of ownership from congress to all of the airways, waterways, mining and drilling, in such large segments that all but the super rich are excluded. The super rich are locking up the basic commodities for the next generation of discoveries for the benefit of the same old same olds. I see large public service companies that have failed miserable in providing service awarded ten year extensions by county commissions and the city leaders they control.



Yeah, the whole thing is ruined by corruption. Kind of inevitable really. It's still probably the best system though, but it just needs more integrity at the top..... but we're back to man and his fallen nature.




_________________
David

 2008/8/27 10:15Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

The nation of Israel, during the time of Jeremiah,
backslid from the Lord. They exchanged their relationship with the Father for the idols of the heathen that surrounded them.

Jer 9:23 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise [man] glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty [man] glory in his might, let not the rich [man] glory in his riches:


Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I [am] the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these [things] I delight, saith the LORD.

They sought to be free from God...and glory in the "wisdom" "might" and "riches" that this world has to offer.

The fruit does not resemble the nature of Christ but the nature of Satan...

In Christ
Jeff




_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2008/8/27 10:30Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Spitfire...

I think that I understand what you are saying. The "American Dream," as illustrated by the mass media, is the belief that any American can educate himself or work hard and earn enough money to buy his/her own house, car, furniture and start a family of four or five. It shouldn't be confused with "competing with the Jones" -- because that is rooted by those who fulfill the "American Dream" but still want more than their neighbors.

The idea of the "American Dream" probably began within our Declaration of Independence. Thomas Jefferson wrote, "[i]We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness[/i]." This final phrase ("Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness") was borrowed directly from English philosopher John Locke, who wrote against the idea of the "Divine Right of Kings." Locke taught that all men are born with a "tabula rasa" (or "clean slate") and that no man is born greater than another with the exception of Christ. Locke went on to write that all men have a natural right to "[i]life, liberty and estate[/i]" (estate being property). His philosophy had a powerful impact on the men of his time...and especially the "founding fathers" of the United States. John Locke and a French student named Rousseau also devised the idea of a "social contract" by which people give up certain small rights in order for a created government to maintain "decency and order" in the nation (for instance, speeding laws).

Even though this idea or "life, liberty and property" existed from the mind of an English philosopher, it wasn't fully realized until it was put into practice in the United States. It was interesting that Thomas Jefferson borrowed the phrase directly from Locke, but changed "property" to "the pursuit of happiness." However, we should remember that most nations of that time allowed only nobles and feudal lords to own property. The greatest sign of wealth was not in printed money or gold, but in the ownership of property. Many biographies about Jefferson indicate that he had a difficulty with the phrase, but simply could not think of a clearer phrase for our natural rights than "the pursuit of happiness."

Is it a lie? Well, not exactly.

In this nation, a person is supposedly born with a “tabula rasa” in which we are all born with “equal opportunity.” Any person, with enough determination, can succeed to the point of fulfilling a goal of owning property. Of course, we take such property ownership far more lightly than peasants who were forced to work on the land of lords in the feudal days of Europe. Even as Republican forms of Democracy eventually settled throughout Europe, the idea of owning property or a business was scarcely realized. That is the reason behind the mass immigration into the United States during the 19th, 20th and 21st Centuries. People came to “fulfill the American dream” – in which they once quipped that “the streets of America are paved with gold!” I don’t think that anyone thought that American streets were actually paved with gold. Rather, they were probably making the point that anyone in the nation had the opportunity to succeed.

This is largely true. While some men are born into wealth and status, many individuals were able to rise from the ashes of poverty in order to succeed in this nation. America is filled with stories of individuals who came to the United States in order to make a life for themselves. Many early Americans came through English “indentured servitude” programs (a contract of seven years of hard forced labor in exchange for travel expenses to America, a plot of land and about $2000 after the seven years were complete). Many poor in England were quick to sign up for such a program. There was far less opportunity in the Old Country, and the prospect of actually owning a small homestead was quite appealing – despite the prospect of almost “slave” labor. Yet this was what many contemporaries attributed “the Protestant work ethic” toward. Men were instructed in Church to avoid the sins of “laziness” and work hard to provide for the needs of their families. It created a unique situation in which hard work actually paid off – which was quite different than conditions in Europe and Latin America.

But the question needs to be asked: Should owning property even be such a lofty goal?

Abraham was an extremely wealthy man blessed with great wealth. He amassed great herds of livestock. He could have built a large palace on a large ranch. Yet the Bible says that he preferred to dwell in a tent as a traveler…because he “looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God” (Hebrews 11:10). Now, I am not sure just what Abraham was looking for. Perhaps he had a vision of the New Jerusalem…and wanted to find it on Earth? Or perhaps he simply realized the fleeting nature of this life, and that true value is only in the things of God.

Owning property is not a sin. Even working to own property is not sin. In my opinion, it is a whole lot better than owing rent. In America, with a bit of hard work and effort, a person can actually own property and build a house – debt free. In fact, the realization of the “American dream” is not a lie. Many people who start from nothing grow to the point in which they rise above poverty. People go to school in order to educate themselves so that there is a greater opportunity to provide adequately for their family (a high school and/or college degree certainly provide better opportunities compared with those without such things). However, even uneducated individuals can work hard enough in order to get to a point in which they can own a house and car without debt.

My wife’s family immigrated to the United States in order to realize such an “American dream.” They arrived legally from Mexico while my wife and her nine siblings were still in school. Her father and mother have 5th grade educations, but they realized that opportunity to succeed in the United States was far greater than in Mexico. My wife’s entire family worked as migrant farm workers throughout the United States. They lived in extremely poor conditions (at one time living in a travel trailer and taking showers outside with a water hose). Yet their father pushed upon them a strong work ethic for both jobs and education. As a result of their migrant labor, they purchased a nice plot of land in Texas. Over time, their family built a little shanty house…and now a better two-story brick house…entirely debt free!

My father-in-law is a part-time janitor at Wal-Mart. He cannot speak English. Yet he has fulfilled what most people would consider the “American dream.” He has a nice home, a couple of vehicles, and he has watched all of his children graduate from high school and college (with the exception of one who just began college last year as an Architectural Engineering student and the youngest who will begin college at Stanford next month). Most importantly, they are a strong Christian family. They all are dedicated servants of the Lord!

I suppose that the important thing to realize is that, yes, you can achieve the “American dream.” It is not a lie in the sense that it is obtainable (and that there is nothing wrong in and of itself). However, it can be deceptive if the pursuit of material possessions becomes the catalyst for living. My father-in-law sacrificed greatly so that he could fulfill his role as a godly father and provide for the needs of his family. This should be the extent of our “dream.” Like Abraham, our pursuit should be for the things of God – particularly, to see His Face. In this pursuit, we should strive to be good providers for our families. Yet we should all be so unattached to the things of this world that we are ready to depart at any time. Our “value” and “happiness” should be completely in the things of God and in fulfilling the instructions that He has given us. Part of those instructions is to take care of our families. I suppose that the difference is that we find contentment with the things that God has given us without resorting to pointing the finger at the wealthy as if they were part of some great conspiracy. Some of them, believe it or not, started out just as poorly as my father-in-law.

“Wealth” is so fleeting. Over 80% of this world lives below the levels of the poorest welfare families in America! I am disappointed when I see people living in a governmental project home complain about the “hand that he was dealt” – when there are literally billions of people in the world who are fighting starvation every single day! The “American dream” for such people is just to survive or to watch their children survive.

May God help us to be good providers – but to also be content with the things that the Lord provides!


_________________
Christopher

 2008/8/27 11:34Profile









 Re:

Quote:
In this nation, a person is supposedly born with a “tabula rasa” in which we are all born with “equal opportunity.”



To paraphrase Larry Norman in his classic song "The Great American Novel"... the rich are "more equal" than the rest of us.

Krispy

 2008/8/27 11:47





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