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Joined: 2008/8/26
Posts: 62


Hi appolus, God bless you too brother. I don't know if I have the faith of the Roman soldier [i]yet[/i], though my faith is growing stronger everyday. An interesting thing about that case: I've seen plenty of televangelists sit on their TV show and proclaim that people are getting healed through the TV show. However, Jesus healed thousands, possibly tens of thousands in his earthly ministry. Out of all of all those people, I can count off the top of my head 3 times where He healed someone that was far away from Him. That method of healing appears to be the exception, not the rule. The vast majority of healings came from Jesus touching the person.

Bow out so you don't have to answer?

No Mike, I'm not running scared of you, despite what you might think. It is quite obvious to me that there is nothing I can say or do that will change your mind on this subject, so I will say or do nothing to you about this subject anymore. I'm not interested in getting in a long, drawn out forum war where he who posts last wins by default.

 2008/8/31 16:11Profile


Hi Joshh

I challenged the man that claimed to me that he had the same faith as the Roman solider. I did not do it to expose him or anything, actually I did it out of logic. If one claims to have that kind of faith, and that it is apart from the recipient of the miracle, then that one should be able to "heal," whoever. I asked him to step back into church with me and go talk to the lady in our church who was crippled from birth. I asked him to simply use his faith so that she may be healed. Why not? If that faith exists, then wherever that one is, there should be no cripples? Agreed? He started to stutter and backtrack and it was all a wee bit embarrising. Truth be told Joshh, the better known people who make these claims, guys like Benny Hinn and so on, cannot do this either, not even once. Every single person that gets wheeled into a Benny Hinn "service," gets wheeled back out again. This articel I came across today is worth checking out . God bless........Frank

 2008/8/31 17:33

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Will

No Mike, I'm not running scared of you, despite what you might think. It is quite obvious to me that there is nothing I can say or do that will change your mind on this subject, so I will say or do nothing to you about this subject anymore. I'm not interested in getting in a long, drawn out forum war where he who posts last wins by default.

Ah you are mistaken brother. It is none of these things. Think about it; "[i]It is quite obvious to me that there is nothing I can say or do that will change your mind on this subject[/i]. And I might say the same of yourself but we never got around to the very ... meat of your argument, that of unbelief and doubting and the Lords own words. To be honest I still wrestle with them, how to make sense of them in so many matters such as this very one under discussion.

This is not a war or winning an argument, last man (post) standing, brother this is not that kind of site though it may give off that unfortunate appearance at times. We are decidedly after the truth, a challenge shouldn't make anyone pack up their tents and go ...

Perhaps it was too heavy handed in places and perhaps you are not so arrogant after all. You are free to express yourself and detach as well, for the sake of those here reading into these things and for trying to get back to Dirks original questions there is just as much speaking in generalities as anything, it's challenges to all our thinking, first my own.

It seems only right that some contrasting is done - What of suffering?

[i]Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.[/i] 1Pe 4:19

There it is again, [i]according to the will of God[/i] - It is also God's will that some should suffer. Some even rejoiced;

[i]And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.[/i] Act 5:41

This after first being beaten.

The poor, do they not suffer? The hungry, are they not also sick due to malnutrition? Jesus fed the masses but did they not become hungry again in the days following? What was His purpose for doing the things that He did?

Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead only for him to die again, all those He healed eventually lost their healings - It is quite impossible to believe that healing is [i]always[/i] the will of the Lord and more accurate to say that it is [i]always[/i] the Lords will that men shall die and die in their sins if they do not repent.

If this premise was accurate it is met with a great problem; You are 90 years old and already pushing the 'limit' that God also said is the allowable span of human creature life. You have both the faith and the 'gift' of healing, some sickness broods down upon you because one of your organs is failing. You stir up that gift and that faith and declare "[i]It is always the Lords will to heal![/i]" And so you are healed ... this time. How many times can it be repeated? Ad naseum? Into infinity- [i]always[/i]?

Certainly it is ridiculous. The reason for going to such extremes is to simply point out the fallacy of the argument - it cannot stand up to the weight of scrutiny.

[i]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?[/i] Joh 21:18-23

"[i]If I will[/i] ..."

It's interesting you mention this, because this morning while taking a shower I was thinking about death (I know, I know - big surprise for a mortician to be thinking about death while taking a shower), and how it might be fair for the proponents of the God "always" mindset to apply their theology to physical death the same why they do physical sickness.

:-) Well I know we have had a few conversations about this mighty subject brother and ironically was thinking the same thoughts in the shower as well, but that is not uncommon, am often thinking about death - still may yet give a shot at writing that book some day ...

Listened to a couple of randomly selected messages from Art Katz yesterday, had the rare opportunity to do so while painting at work. It was interesting as one was apparently quite a but older, around the time of forming Ben Israel and the other fairly more recent. His voice and inflections were different, the sense of a different disposition, the little nuances and so forth. But these still managed to be directed towards this matter though they were not on the subject of healing.

The older of the two;

[url=]The Cost of Discipleship[/url]

[b]Scripture(s)[/b]: [i]Acts 16:6- 9[/i]

[b]Description[/b]: The spirit of glibness, instantaneous experiences and gratification, and superficiality has entered our spiritual lives. This message gives us the pattern of God’s way with His servants in the world. God’s Spirit not only leads, but also to give us a check. The Lord is leading us to a relationship that we will know His voice and when He speaks, we will go. We must crucify our flesh, our fears, and just follow Him. Art gives examples both from his own life and Scripture of the Spirit of God leading.

The thrust stems from the account in Acts; [i] but the Spirit suffered them not.[/i] Or as I believe he was using the ASV; [i]having been forbidden of the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia;[/i] And the comparisons with the general scope of preaching the gospel to every creature, "Are we not to go and preach the gospel to everyone?" The parallel to 'always'. "Is this not a contradiction of His own word?" Much more to this message than just this - grasping intuition, even the smile that was brought about when he talked of the earlier years of 'hearing' the Lord speaking more commonly and how as time and understanding went on the less frequent this and even the fright of standing up to speak and sensing nothing of the Holy Spirit at all - The 'knowing' business.

The other and more recent;

[url=]The Mysteries of the Faith[/url]

[i]For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.[/i] Eph 6:12

He starts off noting the word repeated five times; [i]against[/i] and emphasizes it. It is interesting to take this really to heart, the tendency is to overlook it, realized I had in fact done just that in part - Not [i]men[/i] but as the text suggests. He manages to stay within the bounds of not overdoing it where some have gone to seed with which demon is controlling this area and that sort of thing but appeals to the atmosphere for instance when one travels to a foreign country and notices the difference just crossing the border, "something in the air". Much more could be said but it appeals back to the sovereignty of God and even further just what the church is as a spectacle to these powers and principalities. The wisdom of God in confounding even what we might think is prudent or even His will and being mistaken, motivation wise aside - I took it back to the idealism of 'always' just as well. Two wisdoms, the wisdom of God and the wisdom of this world, two moral orders. The lack of eternity mindedness. Great message.

Long in the tooth .. again - and have driven this peg probably farther down than is necessary.

What is the Lords will? Is it specific and general only or is it ... dare I say situational? It seems beyond those things we do know that the later is in fact the case. I recall somewhere along the line grasping the notion that when we know the Lord truly we will not be asking for things He will not give us. In other words taking Joh 14:14 - [i]If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.[/i] has less to do with either asking or the thing itself and far more to do with all that is encompassing in [i]My Name[/i]. So out goes presumption and try as I might to dislodge myself here from it, so goes [i]always[/i] with it.

Still, for all that - how do we get around, a better word is needed ... how do we get faith and presumption sorted out? There is this sort of hedging I must admit especially with the abuse of such things as WOF doctrine so rampant that makes it difficult to even broach the subject. What about the very real aspect of just not believing, of doubting? James again comes to mind and has now for some time;

[i]If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.[/i] Jas 1:5


[i]But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.[/i] Jas 1:6

For ...

[i]For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.[/i] Jas 1:7

Due to ...

[i]A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.[/i] Jas 1:8

This very section has been challenging me greatly of late, perhaps the last couple of months - I keep coming back to it. Lord, grant me wisdom for _______ and yet it seems to allude and though I know the response, there I am doubting after all! Well go figure ... No wonder I seem to be lost and tossed and ... double minded, unstable. So it seemed to dawn on me that I needed to settle this, quit trying to figure it out (Katz comes back into mind here, speaking of "Is it you Lord or is it me, or the [i]debble[/i]?" and how we can just stagnate right there) and just get on with it. Strange how not so much things calmed down as [i]I calmed down[/i] not shortly thereafter. Slow learner ...

So how does this same sort of thing play into what the Lord said about asking and how does it play out in the realm of healing or even deliverance? What about the [i]gift[/i] of faith? I am not at all interested in how to get out of such a dilemma as to get into the depths of it.

Mike Balog

 2008/8/31 20:53Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Chatty Kathy

Here is what I had in mind in relation to and for Josh's defense as I agree with him in great part. This challenge of faith, from George Mueller;

[b]Clearing the Fog.[/b]

Charles Inglis, the well-known evangelist, relates the following remarkable incident:
“When I first came to America thirty-one years ago, I crossed the Atlantic with the captain of a steamer who was one of the most devoted men I ever knew; and when we were off the banks of Newfoundland he said to me: ‘Mr. Inglis, the last time I crossed here, five weeks ago, one of the most extraordinary things happened that has completely revolutionized the whole of my Christian life. Up to that time I was one of your ordinary Christians. We had a man of God on board, George Mueller, of Bristol. I had been on that bridge for twenty-two hours and never left it. I was startled by someone tapping me on the shoulder. It was George Mueller.

“‘Captain,’ said he, ‘I have come to tell you that I must be in Quebec on Saturday afternoon.’ This was Wednesday.

“‘It is impossible,’ I said.

“‘Very well, if your ship can’t take me God will find some other means of locomotion to take me. I have never broken an engagement in fifty-seven years.’

“‘I would willingly help you, but how can I? I am helpless.’

“‘Let us go down to the chart room and pray,’ he said.

“I looked at this man and I thought to myself, ‘What lunatic asylum could the man have come from? I never heard of such a thing.’

“‘Mr. Mueller,’ I said, ‘do you know how dense this fog is?’

“‘No,’ he replied, ‘my eye is not on the density of the fog, but on the living God, who controls every circumstance of my life.’

“‘He went down on his knees, and he prayed one of the most simple prayers. I thought to myself, ‘That would suit a children’s class, where the children were not more than eight or nine years of age.’ The burden of his prayer was something like this: ‘O Lord, if it is consistent with Thy will, please remove this fog in five minutes. You know the engagement You made for me in Quebec for Saturday. I believe it is Your will.’

“When he had finished, I was going to pray, but he put his hand on my shoulder and told me not to pray.

“‘First,’ he said, ‘you do not believe God will do it; and, second, I believe He has done it. And there is no need whatever for you to pray about it.’

“I looked at him, and George Mueller said this: ‘Captain, I have known my Lord for fifty-seven years and there has never been a single day that I have failed to gain an audience with the King. Get up, Captain and open the door, and you will find the fog is gone.’ I got up, and the fog was gone. On Saturday afternoon George Mueller was in Quebec.”



Perhaps the answer is right here.

Mike Balog

 2008/8/31 21:06Profile

Joined: 2008/8/26
Posts: 62


Frank, one thing about the incidence of the Roman centurion is that it is only one of 2 places in the Gospels where Jesus commented on the person's “great” faith. In fact, it says the Jesus marveled at it, and He hadn't encountered such great faith, even in Israel! So out of all the people Jesus met in his earthly ministry, you could probably say no one had more faith then this man.

If that faith exists, then wherever that one is, there should be no cripples? Agreed?

It's a difficult question, though I can certainly see how you arrived at that conclusion. The hang ups I have on that is number 1, Jesus in his own hometown. I'm sure Jesus had the faith to believe he could have healed and done many great works there, but due to the people's doubts and unbelief, it didn't happen. So I don't know that your personal faith can always override someone else's doubt and unbelief. The other thing is that the Greek word “pais” used for servant is in other places is also translated “child” or “son”, and it can even mean infant. In Matt 2:16, when Herod had all the male children under the age of 2 killed, the word for children is “pais”. So you can't really make the conclusion right away that this was an infant or young child, but I think that it is possible, and if that is the case, then the infant couldn't believe for itself.

So to answer your question if I agree that if one had the faith of the centurion there would be no crippled people, I would have to say that right now I don't know. I think the evidence in this case that I've seen is inconclusive.

 2008/8/31 21:30Profile


Hi Josh...we disagree brother but I like your spirit. I refuse to let Satan divide the brotherhood. I am tired of us being divided and conquered. My dream is to see excellent men in the Word and excellent men of the "Spirit," come closer together and work to bring light into darkness. As long as Jesus is the only one that is ever held up. As long as Jesus is the goal. All of us on this forum come from many different backgrounds adn many of us have been "around the block," more than once. The physical miracle is totlally secondary to me. I love Jesus and I am in awe of Him. The vastness of my God and the beauty of His Holiness is what interests me. If miracles flow out of that, then so be it. No one performed more miralces than Jesus, and they all left Him "Will you too leave me," He says to His disciples. When all the crowds and and all the hoopla died away, there were 120 in the upper room. Even the lepers that were healed did not come back and thank him. The man at the pool turned him in to the authorities, "snitched ,' on him. I expect to see actual mirtacles in the life of every believer at various points in their Christianity. Yet it is such a small part of who we are in Christ, we should rejoice rather in our salvation. Look how much tongues have seperated good brothers and sisters, one of the least of the gifts, but satan has managed to use it as a "wedge," issue(I wonder if that is where poiticians get their inspiration from :)

Let me just say this Josh, and I have been used this way, twice in 18 years. The Lord spoke to me and directed me to pray specifically and out loud and the people were healed. When the Lord speaks, He brings it to pass. When men of no faith speak, they simply pray for everybody and take "credit," for anything that pops up. Praying for everybody everytime takes no faith, rather it is a salesman tactic. If you pray for 200 people to be healed, your probably, by the law of everages, gonna get a healing which probably had nothing to do with you. Jesus only ever did what He heard the Father direct. True men of faith follow that and it never fails because God never fails. Wishful thinkers fail constantly in the prayers for the sick, because it is just that, wishful thinking. Lets face it Josh, The Roman soldier's faith was not the faith that was coming with Penetcost. The power of Pentecost was something different. This power from on high was different from the power that the Apostles had when the Lord sent them out. Today we have the highest proportion of unchurched in the history of America, 60% now reckoned to be completely unchurched and rising with every decade. The light is going out in the Church of America, as it has gone out in the churches all over Europe. And what is a large portion of the Church doing about it? Chasing miracles. I say that with sadness. They should be chaisng the power of Katanusso(stabbed in the heart) Which is the name of one of my previous posts and can be found on my website. The power to violently agitate the hearts of men, as in the day of Pentecost and 3000 were saved. In the beauty of Holiness and with love for my brother............Frank

 2008/8/31 22:42

Joined: 2008/8/26
Posts: 62


Mike I'll continue this with you a little while longer. On the issue of suffering, I have no doubt that we all will suffer to some degree. However, we disagree on what role sickness plays in suffering. Look at what Paul went through:

From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one

Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep;

in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness--

I think we would all agree that is suffering. But absent from that is chronic disease, chronic or acute sickness. See, I'm not claiming it is always God's will to heal because I just decided one day it was, or I have a special revelation, or someone talked me into it. I believe it's always God's will because when I look in the Gospels I see Jesus always healing. Frank said, and I agree, that Jesus only did what he saw the Father direct. Yet I never see anywhere that Jesus was directed to not heal someone. In fact, Jesus never even had to stop and pray to find out Father's will about healing a certain person. As I see it, there is one reason why he didn't: he already knew that Father's will was for that person was to get healed.

I believe a 90 year old man could in fact receive healing and have a well functioning body through Jesus healing him. Again, I don't see why someone has to go from a heart attack or some other health problem. Read how FF Bosworth died.

So what is God's will? I believe, in this case, it is shown in the Bible, as Jesus always heals. I didn't always believe that. I used to believe He had bigger things to worry about, or I had to get my act together, or learn something, or, or, or...But my experience with healing has changed much since my thinking on this has changed, as have people I know that have had the same change in theology.

Frank, one thing about this subject: There is a big difference between chasing miracles, and trying to get a need met. What I'm doing is trying to show people that God wants to meet that need.

One last thing

In Matthew 14, we have one of the most famous miracles of the Bible.

Now in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went to them, walking on the sea.

And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, "It is a ghost!" And they cried out for fear.

But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, "Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid."

And Peter answered Him and said, "Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water."

So He said, "Come."And when Peter had come down out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus.

So it was the sovereign will of God that Peter walk on the water with Christ. It was the right time, the right purpose. This was God's will for Peter at this situation.

But when he saw that the wind was boisterous,he was afraid; and beginning to sink he cried out, saying, "Lord, save me!"

But Peter began to sink. Why? Why would Peter begin to sink? Did God's sovereign will for Peter suddenly change? Did God have to keep Peter humble?

And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?"

NO, it was because of Peter's little faith and doubt.

So my question, and I would really love to hear your answers: Could it be that God might sovereignly want to heal us, to fix what is broken in our bodies, but because of our little faith and doubt, we, like Peter, don't get what God wants us to have?

 2008/9/1 3:16Profile


1Ti 5:23 Drink water no longer, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake, and for your frequent infirmities.

From G772; feebleness (of body or mind); by implication malady; moral frailty: - disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness.

2Co 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

2Co 12:5 I will glory of such a one, yet I will not boast on my behalf, except in my infirmities
2Co 12:6 For if I desire to boast, I shall not be foolish. For I will speak the truth. But I spare, lest anyone should think of me as being beyond what he sees me, or hears of me;

2Co 12:5 I will glory of such a one, yet I will not boast on my behalf, except in my weaknesses.
2Co 12:6 For if I desire to boast, I shall not be foolish. For I will speak the truth. But I spare, lest anyone should think of me as being beyond what he sees me, or hears of me;
2Co 12:7 and by the surpassing revelations, lest I be made haughty, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be made haughty.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord three times, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And He said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore I will rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may overshadow me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I am pleased in weaknesses, in insults, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am powerful.

Sickness was a part of the early church. Paul's co-worker was sick almost unto death but the Lord healed them lest they be overcome with grief. Why let the man become so sick in the first place? Why not just heal him right away? Obvioulsy Paul was afflicted and in the context of the word "infirmity," it is beyond reasonable doubt that this was a malady, a sickness. Perhaps Paul was lacking in faith? Or perhaps the Lord had a higher purpose in allowing this? Perhaps there is mystery in the will of the Lord? Perhaps we do not always know the whole picture?

Joshh, I am assuming that you have never been sick then? Nor any of your close family? Am I too assume that you are claiming, at least for yourself, that you will never be sick? For one such as yourself, who is thouroughly convinced of what you speak would not be able to make any argument when your sickness comes. If you become sick, and remain sick, you will not be able to claim that there is a lack of faith, correct? For you have total faith in what you believe.

Listen to what Gloria Copeland says ......what you continually say creates an image in front of you that will come to pass. .. the Word of God and the words you continually speak create an image that comes to pass in your life. You have to change what your heart sees with the Word of God and speak in agreement with that. .. Your words are a fortress for you or a fortress against you!"

What she is referring to is the same power of words that Hagin has alluded to, an innate power in the spoken word that can be used for good or for evil, a spiritual force that can be supercharged by the power of the spoken Word of God that is continually confesses. She goes on to say that

what you continually say with your mouth is what you believe in your heart .. you're sowing words all the time and you reap a harvest all the time. Now you sow the right words and you'll sow the right harvest. .. Faith has to be in two places. It has to be in your heart and it has to be in your mouth. Just in your mouth without the Word of God in your heart to back it up is just a mental confession .. it's not got the creative power of God's Word in it to change things. If you just have it in your heart, you believe it in your heart, but you don't say it with your mouth, or you say something opposite that with your mouth, than you haven't done what it takes to release that faith out of you as brother Roberts teaches .. and to apply it to the circumstances that you want to change. The word of your mouth, coming out of your heart in faith, change natural circumstances."(emphasis mine) (19).

You see, its not what the Father says that comes to pass, according to Gloria, its what you say. Its your words that have the power. A reasonably subtle attack on God's soveriegnty that has ensnared hundreds of thousands, perhaps more. The power is in the word of your mouth, not the will of God. God's plans can only come to pass if man speaks. If man fails to speak, then Gods plan for that man is thwarted. So, a righteous man of God orders his own steps, they are not ordered of God. It changes the very heart of the word of God. And so these people become like ships at sea in a storm. They dwell in a constant battle. They remind me of the prohets of Baal , jumping up and down and trying to get their God's attention. And if they manage to do it just right, if they can muster up just enough, then they can get their deity to do what they want. I have seen it for years and it is devastatingly sad. When the failure comes, when they are struck with sickness, when their loved one is struck by sickness, and all the praying and pleading fails, their faith founders on the rocks because their faith is dependent upon their circumstances. God bless those poor souls. For me, the Lord prepares a table before me in the presence of my enemies. Despite my circumstances I will praise the Lord. Yet though He slay me I will praise the Lord. In sickness and in health(do the people of "faith" not use that particular vow when they get married?, just a thought )

Anyway, thats my thoughts for the day. God bless all my brothers and sisters today. Have a great labor day...........Frank

 2008/9/1 9:07

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7504

 Re: all will be healed?


I started reading this thread, having ignored it earlier because I know from experience on SI how involved it can get. And you get nowhere because deep questions still remain.

Healing: we all want it when ill. Sickness all began when man sinned in the garden. On its heels came death - you cannot separate the two. All the people Jesus healed supernaturally ended up dying. Death is coming for all unless the LORD returns before it happens.

One can believe in divine healing and still die: "because it is appointed unto man once to die" and we do not know when that appointment is. It is instinct that we do all we can to survive and this is good.

Brother, we had a daughter that got brain cancer (glioblastoma) and she died. She was 25 YO and had two small children - a 26 month old and a 9 1/2 month old, plus a husband. We prayed, she was anointed with oil three times, and we believed the LORD to heal her. He did, bit he allowed her to go into the realm of eternity to experience it.

Personally, God healed my emotions in dealing with this loss. Today, I am glad she is there, am glad she does not have to deal with the mess the world is in on the personal level. I could detail what the LORD has done for us through this experience but will refrain from it at this moment.

What I think is the greater issue propelling this question is that people are afraid to die! And why so? Think about it! PEOPLE ARE AFRAID TO DIE!

Have you seen people die? I have seen it three times: our daughter, my MIL and Dad. Solomon says it well: Eccles. 7:2 (NASB) It is better to go to a house of mourning Than to go to a house of feasting, Because that is the end of every man, And the living takes it to heart. v. 14: In the day of prosperity be happy, But in the day of adversity consider--God has made the one as well as the other So that man will not discover anything that will be after him." Read this entire chapter: it will provide you with a longer view of life and God's sovereignty over it. And you will be blessed. And perhaps, the greater issue answered. Oh, and read Job: he was confronted with the same questions raised on this forum. His friends were physicians so their observations and questions are worth considering. If you weary of reading through all those philosophical wranglings, go to the end and read what the conclusion of the matter was.


Sandra Miller

 2008/9/1 10:49Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Healing

Hi Josh, thanks for being patient and gracious. I have some misgivings for the manner and lack of restraint in spots. Forgive me. Some of the old haunts if you will bring back to mind the abuse and manipulations ...

There is probably no way to make a clean delineation with this so probably a bit of both;

[i]See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.[/i] Deu 32:39

I know there was a mention prior about not using the OT and I am not exactly sure how you view matters as distinct one from the other (as in the NT). Not to put words in your mouth but this is often a mistake with many - dispensationalism being just one. But I don't want to get bogged down there ... only don't forget how often the disciples and even the Lord appealed to the OT scriptures, [i]it is written[/i].

In John 12 Jesus is telling the people what death He must die and alludes to Moses lifting up the serpent in the wilderness. He speaks of "believing in the light" and at length John states;

[i]But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:[/i] Joh 12:37

Much more could be said right at that juncture but he goes on, quoting Isaiah;

[i]That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.[/i] Joh 12:38-40

John is stating that this is a fulfilling of that prophecy. It is interesting to note [i]they could not believe (because) [b]He[/b] hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart[/i]. It's a difficult passage as are others earlier alluded to, Paul again comes to mind;

[i]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted [b]his will[/b]?[/i] Rom 9:19

And I would take this also back to Deuteronomy above. Gods will and sovereignty. Tucked right square into the midst of all this is indeed the matter of believing but does one therefore spell the other? In other words is the criteria [i]only believe[/i] and everything is ready to be bestowed upon the asking; healing, gifts, finances, right on out into the very extrapolated abuses of WOF and like constructs? It is a very tight point and one that I am at pains to exemplify in a greater more general understanding. It [i]seems[/i] to allude your very efforts of application towards healing and what Jesus did while walking this earth (and beyond) but bare with me, I want to come back to that as well. Some commentary continuing from Paul's exclamation above;

[i]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/i] Rom 9:20

[b]Rom 9:20 -
Nay but, O man ...[/b] - To this objection the apostle replies in two ways; first, by asserting the sovereignty of God, and affirming that he had a right to do it Rom_9:20-21; and secondly, by showing that he did it according to the principles of justice and mercy, or that it was involved of necessity in his dispensing justice and mercy to mankind; Rom_9:22-24.

[b]Who art thou ...[/b] - Paul here strongly reproves the impiety and wickedness of arraigning God. This impiety appears,

(1) Because man is a creature of arraigning God. This impiety appears, Because man is a creature of God, and it is improper that he should arraign his Maker.

(2) he is unqualified to understand the subject. “Who art thou?” What qualifications has a creature of a day, a being just in the infancy of his existence; of so limited faculties; so perverse, blinded, and interested as man, to sit in judgment on the doings of the Infinite Mind? Who gave him the authority, or invested him with the prerogatives of a judge over his Maker’s doings?

(3) even if man were qualified to investigate those subjects, what right has he to reply against God, to arraign him, or to follow out a train of argument tending to involve his Creator in shame and disgrace? No where is there to be found a more cutting or humbling reply to the pride of man than this. And on no subject was it more needed. The experience of every age has shown that this has been a prominent topic of objection against the government of God; and that there has been no point in the Christian theology to which the human heart has been so ready to make objections as to the doctrine of the sovereignty of God.

[b]Repliest against God[/b] - Margin, “Answerest again; or, disputest with God.” The passage conveys the idea of answering again; or of arguing to the dishonor of God. It implies that when God declares his will, man should be still. God has his own plans of infinite wisdom, and it is not ours to reply against him, or to arraign him of injustice, when we cannot see the reason of his doings.

[b]Shall the thing formed ...[/b] - This sentiment is found in Isa_29:16; see also Isa_45:9. It was especially proper to adduce this to a Jew. The objection is one which is supposed to be made by a Jew, and it was proper to reply to him by a quotation from his own Scriptures. Any being has a right to fashion his work according to his own views of what is best; and as this right is not denied to people, we ought not to blame the infinitely wise God for acting in a similar way. They who have received every blessing they enjoy from him, ought not to blame him for not making them different.

Albert Barnes

Brother the reason for trying to hammer this all home is manifold. There are severe repercussions for taking things too far. Most of us are familiar with the reports of people dying because even though medical treatment was available it was shunned due to a similar mindset, stemming from the [i]always[/i] attributes of a misconstrued understanding. If anything, these who have gone to such lengths, have they not put their faith to the severest test of all? Shunned medicine and outside help and yet ...

It is such a vital point brother, often a matter of life and death. In the link prior to Art Katz, (the earlier of the two) he spoke of slipping in the shower area of I believe a YMCA after baptizing a number of converts ([i]With Pat Boone! A great visual for the imagination[/i]) and in effect shattering his knee. He goes on later to describe the episode after being persuaded to go the doctor after all and talks of the bones being healed right under the doctors hand (a Jewish man). The doctor tells him that if he puts it in a cast right now he could avoid surgery. Laid up afterward a nurse comes in wanting to give him an injection for the pain but he tells her that it is quite alright, that it is not needed and goes on to explain the puzzlement and even indignation of the nurse over his refusal. She comes back with pills instead and he informs her that he has no fear of needles having been in the Army and punctured multiple times but that he can endure this light affliction and does not want his conscience affected\manipulated- clouded by some drug and tells his hearers that he hopes that they would have similar concerns. His point was regarding the wisdom of this world and their adamancy of how things are to be done, fixed etc. All that to point out that this is a reoccurring sentiment throughout all his years of preaching, it comes up often - not even taking aspirin to dull the pain I have heard him say. But [i]always[/i]? It must have pained him more severely than the diseases that ultimately took him home to have been hooked up to machines and pumped full of all sorts of drugs in the end. I can say that with a certainty from his character, mentions and disposition but none of this has to do with doubt or unbelief at all. There is hardly anyone I know that stressed the sovereignty of God more than this man of God even to the point where some have accused him of taking even that itself too far - But he was not unrealistic nor a doubter, he believed and taught that everything come from the hands of a benevolent and loving father, His trust I am assured was fully upon the Lord come what may.

Brother, the accounts of Jesus and His healing are not in dispute. That they were recorded as such I do not see as anything other than that which was chosen to be reported, as instanced;

[i]And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.[/i] Joh 20:30,31

As it states, there are even more that haven't even been told but why were they recorded? It tells us why. But I think this is where the error in thinking comes in. In three years of ministry a great deal must have happened and occurred, look back over your own life for the last three years what has transpired since then? I think that it is often a misnomer of how short the Lords ministry on earth was, though it is in comparison to full age it is easy to miss just how long three years truly is.

If the writers of the New Testament only recorded the healing's that does not necessarily translate that this was always the case but again [i]that you might believe[/i]. It is actually an answer from silence to state otherwise.

It seems the will and desire, the mercy and love of the Lord can be misconstrued. I would appeal back to Richard Baxter on the first page of this post, that even sickness can be a mercy. Even in my own life I can attest to this.

[i]Misunderstand not sickness, as if it were a greater evil than it is; but observe how great a mercy it is, that death has so suitable a harbinger or forerunner: that God should do so much before he takes us hence, to wean us from the world, and make us willing to be gone; that the unwilling flesh has the help of pain; and that the senses and appetite languish and decay, which did draw the mind to earthly things: and that we have so loud a call, and so great a help to true repentance and serious preparation! I know to those that have walked very close with God, and are always ready, a sudden death may be a mercy; as we have lately known divers holy ministers and others, that have died either after a sacrament, or in the evening of the Lord's day, or in the midst of some holy exercise, with so little pain, that none about them perceived when they died. But ordinarily it is a mercy to have the flesh brought down and weakened by painful sickness, to help to conquer our natural unwillingness to die.[/i]

Ever have the flu or a cold and recognize how your senses seem sharpened, that there is a clearing of the thoughts, a recognition of what is truly important? I am not suggesting this is some kind of ideal to be sought after ... I am amazed looking back over my clumsy life just why it is the Lord has keep this fool alive. I have fallen in a mighty crash of scaffolding from 20 feet and sustained only a fractured rib, why was I not impaled? Suddenly I am reminded of;

[i]And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.[/i] Mat 4:6,7

Does this not have a great deal of bearing here?

I should have been dead at 16 from alcohol poisoning in a foolish episode. Have been on the very brink of death from some type of aneurysm or speeding up of the heart rate from abusing drugs, speed namely. Have crashed a moped and fell within inches of having my head ran over by a friends Mustang. Rolled a truck by falling asleep at the wheel with a two year old and my girlfriend inside, that coupled with drinking before hand.

So my question, and I would really love to hear your answers: Could it be that God might sovereignly want to heal us, to fix what is broken in our bodies, but because of our little faith and doubt, we, like Peter, don't get what God wants us to have?

Truthfully, I think absolutely it is true that our faith is often too little and our doubting too great. I want that same faith as George Mueller had and I do not want in any way for any of this to be misconstrued, that by bringing forth all this examination that the inference is to suggest or put doubt into any ones head. Far be it from me to do so.

I do not believe however that it is also [i]always[/i] doubt and unbelief that are the reasons for healing not to be given, that it is just as dangerous to infer or presume as much.

If I could add another way of looking at this. Our present health for those of us who have it. Are we as aware and grateful for that which we do have? The great mercies we are already under to be able to discuss these things from afar without the troubles and difficulties that even our silent members may be undergoing? It is very easy to discuss and suppose and give our opinions, even share our experiences but I know there are saints out there with great faith that in Gods permissive will are under going things for reasons not told them nor us.

Mike Balog

 2008/9/1 12:03Profile

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