| Poster | Thread | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: | | Mr. Miller.
You had been warned and have chosen to ignore these warnings. You have shown your pride, lack of humility, unwillingness to learn or be teachable. Disagreements are not grounds for accusations nor is this a place to vent your agenda. Your own words condemn you.
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=7&forum=12&post_id=&refresh=Go]Community Rules[/url]
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Mike Balog
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|  2004/7/9 9:30 | Profile | sermonindex
Moderator
Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada
Online! | | Re: | | Quote:
I see now, just how much hatred there is for men of Faith in this world today. I had never come face to face with so much of this hatred before in my life, untill I began on here. I understand that people want to believe God wants us to be lowly, sick, poor.
I would have to agree with Mike that the comments are very unsuitable and you have totally disragared our warnings in using cutting language that will bring disrepute on this site and people on the forums. We are not people that harbour hatred for men like hagin, I am personally [b]grieved[/b] over the misuse of truth and [b]saddened[/b] and desire you and others to come to the knoweldge of truth and stop relying on men's teachings.
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Even though there is no scripture to back this up if its really studied out.
That just isn't adequate in my view if I remember correctly you first were the one that really pushed us to quote scripture.
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I will keep you in my prayers, but I shall not visit here anymore. I will pray the Lord of Harvest will remove junk like this from the Internet, I will never allow my child to grow up and see so much doubt and unbelief amongst Christians.
I really can't discern the Love of God with you? You say you will 'pray for us' that is wonderful but then you always couple it with a deregatory comment such as this site is 'junk' and that God should remove it from the Internet. GOD FORBID. We have faith and belief here but not in your definition of the words sadly. I don't know what else to say if you considered our representing of the truth to be hatred and unbelief thats really your lose and blindness, I say that with love, I pray God sends suffering into your life so that you may gain patience and godly character. see the scripture below for the reason of my last statement:
[b]James 1:2-4[/b] - My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| | 2004/7/9 11:21 | Profile | TheophilusMD
Member
Joined: 2003/12/1
Posts: 124
New Jersey
| | Re: | | Quote:
I see now, just how much hatred there is for men of Faith in this world today. I had never come face to face with so much of this hatred before in my life, untill I began on here
I absolutely disagree. In forums such as this, disagreements are a given. How we choose to disagree reveals what is in our hearts. It is an unwritten rule here to separate doctrine from the person. We urge, encourage one another to seek and know and experience the truth. Truth sometimes offends. How we react when we're offended reveals how far the Holy Spirit have been at work in our character. How we deal with people who oppose us shows whether that truth is real/experiential. Or whether what we have is really the truth. Jesus doesn't deal with us according to personalities neither does He mark our iniquities. At the very end of His life He was able to say, "Father, forgive them...." David is such an example for me that when Saul died, he mourned for him who sought to kill him. God's mercy had been at work in his heart. Thank God for the depths of His mercy.
I believe there's no hatred here... just an honest, whole-hearted seeking of the truth.
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Rey O.
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| | 2004/7/9 11:27 | Profile | sermonindex
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Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada
Online! | | Re: | | Quote:
I believe there's no hatred here... just an honest, whole-hearted seeking of the truth.
AMEN thank you brother for sharing that, couldn't have said it better myself. 'love of the truth'
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| | 2004/7/9 11:30 | Profile | CJaKfOrEsT
Member
Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia
| | Re: | | I've got to say, that I've actually read about 90% of Mitch Miller's post, and I've been quite impressed with his stand on a variety of points. I have personally been accused of being deceived, simply because I don't adhere to the kind of orthodoxy that is tolerated here. There have been several scathing comments directed to Bro' Mitch that have seemingly been unchecked (see the Hagin Laughter Forum).
Mitch has repeatedly stated that he is not so much defending people, but his view of the Word of God, and you've got to admit that the explainations that he as given are quite reasonable and grounded (ie. he extends the scripture thrown at him, to highlight context, equally as well as any given back). Are we so prepared to grip onto our "doctrines" that we will disregard the truth, when it doesn't appeal to out sense of "spiritual correctness"?
Against Mitch, I will say, if your going to say your gonna let it drop, then let it drop. Basically I'm saying, how about everybaody back off. We're never gonna agree on everything, but if we're gonna disagree, then we need to look at the way we do it before pointing fingers (me included).
I'm not a moderator, so my opinion is little here, but tell me...am I wrong?
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Aaron Ireland
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| | 2004/7/11 9:40 | Profile | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: | | Hi Aaron.
I think Ron's comments and others here go a long way in shedding some light on this:
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2485&forum=35&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1]do all in the name of the Lord Jesus[/url]
Think there is a couple of things going on here.
One is a matter of conduct, attitude and civility, the other is agendas (even if they are unintentional) and lastly doctrine.
Added to all that is the overlapping of thoughts being carried across different postings.
Something that happens often and would be expected is how there is a present 'topic', question or statement presented and it can get off track and/or presents different questions that evolve as the discussion progress.
In this case there is a lot of carry over from the whole posting re: Mr. Haggin. Without going back through the whole thing it does seem apparent that the 'mood' came in tow. This is not an attempt other than to point out a few things, I harbor no ill will towards the brother.
This posting here started off with this question: Quote:
Where in Gods Word, do you find Scripture that allows you to know that you can have healing from anything that comes against you. Of if you do not believe in this, where do you get Scripture that says you must remain sick on this earth.
The question itself sounds loaded to my ears. It presupposes that this is a black or white issue and in his opinion as he goes on to defend if you disagree well then you are ...
Think there was a disregard to consider other thoughts and only a penchant to force his opinion on everyone which is fine if you can do that without throwing accusations, we all have our opinions, right or wrong. But does that constitute a discussion?
As it pertains to the question stated at the beginning of this post, I would agree with this thought from Philologos:
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However, you have quoted a couple of passages of scripture which indicate that you hold the view of healing in the atonement and that consequently adequate faith will always secure physical healing. I feel this is a dangerous mistake,...
The reason being that it cannot hold up to the whole of scripture nor to reality. It is dangerous in that it can lay devastating consequences on those who are not healed by intimating that it is a lack of faith that is preventing their healing. There are some here that have children with disabilities, would this be casually bandied about to them as to the root of their particular problems? What of say Joni Erickson Tada, confined to a wheelchair as a quadriplegic and yet who has done so much for the cause of Christ and and actually despite her suffering has found that she can say she is thankful for her wheelchair, because of what the Lord has been able to do through her.
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I have shown my knowledge of the Bible, and if I used the word assume, I am sorry. I'm not assuming, I'm telling you on behalf of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. God has promised healing.
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We are speaking the Word of God, and instead of bringing the Word back to us, you make fake videos of us. That in itself, is enough to show any man with common sense, who is more Christ like.
These two statements speak for themselves.
To quote Leonard Ravenhill "Do we know the word of God but not the God of the word?"
Don't mean to be mean but there is a sense of pride here, don't think becoming more Christlike is supposed to be a competition. And again the overlapping sentiments from the Haggin post shows that he is indeed 'defending people' including his own opinion, again fine, but why say that is not what you are doing? The fact that the video consisted of two different meetings doesn't change the content of what happened in them.
Having said all that, yes, we all could do a much better job of containing our emotions, even when we are being 'provoked' intentionally or not. There is always going to be a built in factor for misunderstandings here in this type of communication and so the tendencies towards patience to let things unveil, be corrected or clarified. But also the understanding to be civil throughout and make apologies when we fail. I have prior and will again apologize for my own shortcomings, may operate as a 'moderator' but am accountable to all of you here for my conduct and in things spiritual always welcome to be corrected, please don't leave me in my ignorance :-)
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Mike Balog
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| | 2004/7/11 13:52 | Profile | sermonindex
Moderator
Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada
Online! | | Re: | | Quote:
I've got to say, that I've actually read about 90% of Mitch Miller's post, and I've been quite impressed with his stand on a variety of points. I have personally been accused of being deceived, simply because I don't adhere to the kind of orthodoxy that is tolerated here. There have been several scathing comments directed to Bro' Mitch that have seemingly been unchecked (see the Hagin Laughter Forum).
Brother Aaron, your comments and estimations are not totally correct. Firstly the 'orthodoxy' you label me, the moderators and this site with is potrayed as negative. I would say frankly its the 'orthodoxy' of Scripture, of the apostles traditions, and 'if any man seem to be contenious'... (1 corinthians 11:16). I am not perfect neither are the moderators or people that come to the site, but I do confess and declare that God has shown me a revelation of Himself and truth in Scripture which I hold dear against all the counterfiet that is [b]prevalant[/b] in the Church of Jesus Christ in our day.
Whenever I said or implied that you were decieved is not to speak ill against your character as a Christian but to lovingly warn you and lead you into truth, I have tryed with all Gods strength in me to do this in a way that is Christ-like and full of gentleness but at times also holy anger. Dear Brother I have a burden for the Church, the burden is manifest in this ministry site and my constant prayer is that God will somehow use this ministry to make an lasting impact on the Church in our generation.
Brother seriously if you are not willing to be lead into all truth and realize that this is a narrow way and that yes God will use others to even judge and lead us into truth, but if you can't handle that and just want to believe and do what you feel is best then I am not sure why you would tolerate this type of site with people who cleary have narrowminds them being focused on revealed truth and holding onto it as if its a pearl of great price.
To speak franky Mitch's posts don't impress me at all, I really don't sense the spirit of truth pervading his posts. I will state that much of his thoughts are concepts of the God I believe in are false, and I say that with love. God help and have mercy on people that teach falsehood.
[b]Galatians 4:16-18[/b] - Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them. But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you. My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
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Against Mitch, I will say, if your going to say your gonna let it drop, then let it drop. Basically I'm saying, how about everybaody back off. We're never gonna agree on everything, but if we're gonna disagree, then we need to look at the way we do it before pointing fingers (me included).
If paul the apostle could not keep quiet in the defense and love for the truth howbeit could I dare to do so. Christ Love compels me.
[b]Galatians 5:7-9[/b] - Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the [b][u]truth?[/u][/b] This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
[b]Galatians 1:8-10[/b] - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| | 2004/7/11 15:26 | Profile | jeremyhulsey
Member
Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777
| | Re: | | Hi Aarron,
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I'm not a moderator, so my opinion is little here
You don't have to be a moderator for your opinions to be important on SI bro.
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There have been several scathing comments directed to Bro' Mitch that have seemingly been unchecked (see the Hagin Laughter Forum).
I agree with you. We shouldn't be attacking the person but the teaching while loving the person. I'm sorry if I've let my emotions get the best of me in my responses as far as any personal attacks are concerned.
Now as far as healing goes, I think we are all in agreement that God heals today. But how such a teaching is applied is where we are in disagreement. The reason for the strong stances against one another can be found in their historical contexts. Healing streams of the Weslyan-Holiness, and Pentecstal form have their roots in Sola Scriptura and, with a few exceptions, have not strayed into the extremes of the teachings that everyone with a physical ailment must be healed or they don't have enough faith which begs the question: If the faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain, then just how much faith is required to heal?
I have a photo copy of a book called "Trophimus I Left Sick" subtitled "Our Problems With Divine Healing" written by a Pentecostal English theologian who helped the Assemblies of God write their doctrine on healing. It was written during the height of the "healing revivals" in the 50's and he discussed his concerns that we were going to extremes in healing ministries and he showed that physical healing this side of heaven in the scriptures is in tandum with preaching the gospel and not taught as a right of the individual believer. The A/G's also, in their doctrines, do not state it as a "right" but as a "privelidge."
The historical origins of the "Faith" movement and their teaching on healing does not come from or share is doctrine with the teachings of the Weslyan-Holiness or Pentecostal movements. Rather it's origins come from the metaphysical cults that spawned "New Thought" and "Christian Science." That's why I am so opposed to the teachings of the Faith movement, it doesn't come from the Bible, but it twists it. This is a serious charge I know, but it can be shown to be true.
In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey
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Jeremy Hulsey
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| | 2004/7/11 15:44 | Profile | ZekeO
Member
Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
| | Re: | | You are very brave to have open air pasting on your forum, you musy have great faith that you and your team are going to catch something dodgey when it arrives.
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Brother seriously if you are not willing to be lead into all truth and realize that this is a narrow way and that yes God will use others to even judge and lead us into truth, but if you can't handle that and just want to believe and do what you feel is best then I am not sure why you would tolerate this type of site with people who cleary have narrowminds them being focused on revealed truth and holding onto it as if its a pearl of great price.
Imagine that is what you were taught when you became a Chrsitian and now youre told. 'Mate, thats it bit dodge, take a duck. One could get as fundamental as one of them Islamic guys, and blow yourself up.
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[b]Galatians 4:16-18[/b] - Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them. But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you. My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you
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I think that it is very hard to try and bring correction of that nature on people from so vast a place as the internet, their connection to you and the people on this site is as far as the PC in front of them. No relationship, no accountability, nothing.
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If paul the apostle could not keep quiet in the defense and love for the truth howbeit could I dare to do so. Christ Love compels me.
I think that somehow this site is like a fellowship with 5000 odd members and you and the moderators are the eldership team, very difficult to try and shepherd and lead.
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[b]Galatians 1:8-10[/b] - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
Amen. May you continue in your task, you guys have allot to more work to do.
Zeke
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Zeke Oosthuis
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| | 2004/7/11 16:34 | Profile | KeithLaMothe
Member
Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354
| | Re: | | Came over to see the wreckage, not as bad as I thought.
I would like to note that this community has engaged in quite a few discussions and debates on [b][u]very[/u][/b] controversial and often emotionally-charged issues, and as far as I've seen is quite capable of doing so in a loving, mature, productive manner that is both glorifying to God and (much less important) a genuine ministry of nourishment to my soul in reminding me that there actually are people on the internet capable of such good communication. Age of the Earth, role of women in the body of Christ, Christian Perfection, etc... we've had extremely good discussions on these topics with barely any hint of improper behavior (that I've seen). There have been less civil discussions, but they always seemed to involve a certain frequent poster no longer around.
My point is, that of the people involved in this debate, I know that all the ones who've been here a while are more than capable of this kind of irenic, loving yet productive discussion. So, in attempting to understand why this one (and the previous one on Hagin) turned out the way they did, we should look at what was different. I don't mean to gossip or unduly point fingers, but the agitating factor here seems to have been Mitch.
Not that certain of us didn't lose our cool in response to him, and those who thus sinned are obliged to repent (that's between them, God, and Mitch, though). We could have treated him better (and I would ask each of you to consider how for future reference, but I'm sure you already are), but I think in the end it wouldn't have made much difference unless his heart had been changed (by something like regeneration, for example, but I don't know for sure where he is in regard to that).
I think he made some good points (he responded to one of mine quite well), and we made some progress in the debate, but before we could really get down to it the unkind words and accusations started flying (I think the first was from him, not sure), culminating (fairly quickly) in him unilaterally terminating the discussion. That's not the way to get anywhere in a disagreement.
Then there's his unsupported and unexplained dismissal of the Hagin video and related videos as "doctored" or "fake," which (to me) smacks of his significant lack of ability to deal maturely with strong evidence that he might be wrong.
Anyway, just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter, of which the conclusion is: we're not totally free from blame in the matter, far from that, but it was something like handling a bottle of unstabilized nitroglycerin, even if you're careful it could blow up in your face. |
| | 2004/7/11 17:04 | Profile |
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