Post-Tribulation or Pre-Tribulation? I know this is a debate centuries old, but it's still a topic worth discussing (but not a topic to divide over). So if any believe contrary to the other, I still think the Lord knows each heart and what matters is discussing things in a humble and loving manner.

Personally, I feel the Scriptures are pretty clear that the believers will be present on the earth during the tribulation. There are a couple verses that pre-trib theory holds to (1 Thess 4:17 - the Lord descending with a shout) as well as one plowing in the field and the other being taken. But the majority of Scripture tends to see all taking place in light of the Day of the Lord.

2 Peter 3 seems to be pretty clear that the "thief in the night" passage Jesus used is in context with the "new heavens and the new earth" and the old heavens and earth being burned with fire. So it appears it is used to speak of the Post-Trib Coming rather than a Pre-Trib. Jesus also said in Matthew 24 that when the gospel of the kingdom is preached to all the nations, THEN the end will come. He also said "after the tribulation, THEN the Son of Man will appear in the skies and all the earth will mourn."

As far as thinking God "would never" keep believers here during 7 years of tribulation, I think that is a difficult argument. Did God spare believers in Sudan from their tribulations? Did God spare China? Why would He spare the end-times church from 7 years of it? I think God doesn't "spare" believers from persecution, but has His very purposes ordained within tribulation and suffering, that we might be tested and refined and know the very heart of God in the midst of it.

But wasn't Noah spared from the flood? Wasn't Israel kept from the plagues of Egypt? Yes, that is speaking of the judgments of God. Believers will not face wrath from God, but they will face opposition from the world.

Anyway, I'd love to hear thoughts on this topic. Yes, it's an old one hear at sermonindex...

When they asked Jesus about the end times, He
said he that endures to the end shall be saved.
God's influence and His presence will be with
us through the tribulation. He is more than
able to deliver and keep us through the peril-
ous days to come!!

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Martin G. Smith

What is odd is that many evangelicals believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, even though there is no real eschatological purpose for them doing so. Many do not realize that the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture is just over a century old, and comes from John Darby's dispensational theology. At least within his system of theology, a pre-trib rapture makes sense. But when stripped from that system, a pre-trib rapture theory has no legs to stand on besides empty reasonings like "God doesn't want us to suffer." This doctrine as emraced by many evangelicals is simply the theological leftovers from a system of theology that most of them reject. And rightly so... dispensationalism makes sharp and artificial divisions of the Scriptures, resulting in a God who has two peoples with two entirely different purposes. It is a heresy that leads to overt antinomianism and cheap grace.

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Jimmy H

Question: "When is the Rapture going to occur in relation to the Tribulation?"

Answer: The timing of the Rapture in relation to the Tribulation is one of the most controversial issues in the church today. The three primary views are Pretribulational (the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation), Midtribulational (the Rapture occurs at the mid-point of the Tribulation), and Posttribulational (the Rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation). A 4th view, commonly known as Pre-wrath, is a slight modification of the Midtribulational position.

First, it is important to recognize the purpose of the Tribulation. According to Daniel 9:27, there is a seventieth “week” (7 years) that is still yet to come. Daniel’s entire prophecy of the seventy weeks (Daniel 9:20-27) is speaking of the nation of Israel. It is a time period in which God focuses His attention especially on Israel. The seventieth week, the Tribulation, must also be a time when God deals specifically with Israel. While this does not necessarily indicate that the church could not also be present, it does bring into question why the church would need to be on the earth during that time.

The primary Scripture passage on the Rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The Rapture is God removing His people from the earth. A few verses later in 5:9 Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The Book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the Tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the Tribulation. It would seem inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth during the Tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together.

Another crucial passage on the timing of the Rapture is Revelation 3:10. There, Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth. This could mean two things: (1) Christ will protect believers in the midst of the trials, or (2) Christ will deliver believers out of the trials. Both are valid meanings of the Greek word translated “from.” However, it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept “from.” It is not just the trial, but the “hour” of trial. Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the Tribulation. The purpose of the Tribulation, the purpose of the Rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the Pretribulational position. If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the Pretribulational position is the most Biblically consistent interpretation.

My other question is; why would a husband put His bride through tribulation when He has already given His life for Her that He might present to Himself His own beloved Body, His Bride, His Church. Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Washing of living water, by the Word Himself, not by tribulation.

The Word Himself: John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I don't see any tribulation of the end times for Israel in the Body of Christ His Bride.

In Christ: Phillip

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Phillip

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Some believe there will be a bride taken from among the church. The bride of Christ will be delivered from the hour of trial coming upon the earth to try them.

The pre-trib rapture is for the bride, every one else will go through the tribulation.

There are examples in scripture concerning the bride to be taken out from the church.

1. Abraham’s servant getting a bride for Isaac from among his kinsman.
2. The 10 Virgins –5 were wise & 5 were foolish
3. The marriage of the Lamb has come and his wife hath made herself ready
4. Etc…

If the church is taken, who will be left provoke Israel unto jealousy as Paul decribes in Romans 11?

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Jimmy H

rbanks wrote:

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Christiaan

I have always had a problem with the position taken by the vast majority of "Evangelical" denominations of a Pre-trib rapture of the church. Last fall, I woke at 3 am with the following scripture that completely and clearly tells us when the rapture will happen. Oddly enough it is the very scripture that most clearly tells us that it is going to happen.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And then:

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Th.4:16 clearly states: "the dead in Christ shall be raised FIRST, THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up"

1Co. clearly states "and the dead will be raised incorrruptible, and WE shall be CHANGED."

There can be no question that the event that PROCEEDS the "rapture" is the Resurrection of the Saints. The question then is not When is the rapture, but must be When does the Resurrection of the Saints occure?

Hint: Check out what Jesus had to say about the Resurrection in John chapter 6.

Blessings Greg

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Greg

I like Keith Green's thinking on this: When it
comes to believing in either pre-tribulation or
post-tribulation, my motto has alway been: pray
for "pre" but prepare for "post". That way
we'll be ready for truly anything--which is
exactly the way God wants us to be!! The thing
that matters most to God is that His people be
found ready to rule as the bride of Jesus when
He returns.

_________________
Martin G. Smith