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Logic
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 Re:

Quote:
wisevirgin wrote:
Both repentance and faith are the gift of God.

That would make God directly responcible for the unrepentanc and unfaithullness of the world.
Furthermore, it makes God unwilling to save.

You make God a tyrant.

 2008/7/21 12:23Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
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Bloomington, IN

 Re:

I'm not being presumptuous, but asking: Where does scripture teach that the faith through which we are saved is a gift from God, imparted after regeneration?


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Denver McDaniel

 2008/7/21 15:07Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

Galatians 3:21-28 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, (((((that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.))))) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, (((((that we might be justified by faith.))))) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Baptized into Christ:

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Incorruptible Seed, which is the Word (logos) of God.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 1:13-14 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Who gave us rebirth? "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, (((but of God.")))

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/7/21 18:20Profile
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 Re:

I'm not sure if you were answering my question, but none of these verses say that faith is given.


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Denver McDaniel

 2008/7/21 18:27Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

Quote:

"""I'm not being presumptuous, but asking: Where does scripture teach that the faith through which we are saved is a gift from God, imparted after regeneration?"""

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:8. And that not of yourselves; even the act of faith through which salvation is bestowed, is not of yourselves. Thus not only the favor, but even the willingness to receive the favor, is the gift of God.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Be it faith or Grace, none can come to Jesus unless it is given by His Father. I assume this is the whole of Eph 2: 8.

Unless the Father gives the power of Grace to the believer, his faith can have no meaning in regards to salvation. So "faith and grace" both are given by the Father and it is not of ourselves.

So the faith that is now mine is the Faith of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/7/21 21:14Profile
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 Re:

In Eph. 2, salvation is the gift, not faith.

John 6 says nothing about faith...being with Christ is no doubt God's work, but this doesn't say faith itself is given by God (as the Calvinists teach as Irresistible Grace)

Quote:
Be it faith or Grace, none can come to Jesus unless it is given by His Father. I assume this is the whole of Eph 2: 8



You assuming is the problem. You mix all the terms up and then derive the doctrine from your assumptions. But nothing so far has said the faith through which saving grace is imparted is a gift (and irresistible at that). Salvation is a gift by the grace of God, and God's word coming in the power of the Holy Ghost is the power unto salvation, via hearing leading to believing.


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Denver McDaniel

 2008/7/21 21:59Profile
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 Re:

Lets do it once more.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:8. And that not of yourselves; even the act of faith through which salvation is bestowed, is not of yourselves. Thus not only the favor, but even the willingness to receive the favor, is the gift of God.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Therefore if one cannot come to Jesus unless the Father gives the believer unto Him. This must take salvation to come to Him, and that salvation is given by Grace through Faith, how could grace or faith be given unless it is a free Gift. So it is not grace or faith of ourselves, it is the Gift of God, Salvation by Grace through Faith.

I died to sin on the Cross with Jesus Christ, He was perfect and no sin in Him, it was my sin that He drank of the cup in the garden, every nail, every drop of blood, every thorn in his head, was my sin being justified to bring son's to the Glory of the Fathers House and being crucified with Him I died to sin, that is how we present every man that is in Christ Perfect, that is how the Father sees me now, IN Christ.

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

If I died and yet I live and am writing this post, How do I live if I am dead with Christ on the Cross?

It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me.

That life that I now live I live by the Faith of the Son of God, which is His and the Fathers Gift by Jesus Christ Himself being born again in me of Incorruptable Seed of the Father.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Christ: Phillip

The assumption is not putting words to together, but rightly dividing the word of God. The assumption is fact, the whole of Salvation is of God or faith, grace, righteousness, wisdom, redemption and full sanctification by the Faith the Son of God has given us, that we are son's of God also, by His birthing in us and by Him being God, that puts the nature of God in us. Now are we son's of God. By the birthing we are heirs of God in Christ Jesus and that includes heirs to His Faith, to His Grace, to His Father's House, wise in all redemption and sanctification and justification. Joint heirs with Jesus Christ. Because as He is so are we in this world. Is Jesus Christ Faith, is He Wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption, and most of all is it His Father and Him, Jesus Christ that give Grace and Faith and make their abode with us.

This is not Calvinism or and assumption, but assuming that the world of God is true.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/7/22 4:00Profile
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 Re:


Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Quote:
I'm not being presumptuous, but asking: Where does scripture teach that the faith through which we are saved is a gift from God, imparted after regeneration?

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:8. And that not of yourselves; even the act of faith through which salvation is bestowed, is not of yourselves. Thus not only the favor, but even the willingness to receive the favor, is the gift of God.

Ephesians 2:9 "and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"
This is only a re-iteration of
Ephesians 2:8 "Not of works, lest any man should boast" Luke 17:10

Paul is not saying that anything else but the state of affairs of us having been saved through faith by grace is not anything to be earned so as to take credit, it is a "doron"(Greek), an offering of God to all man kind.
You can not make it say any thing else from correctly interpreting it.

Quote:
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. Be it faith or Grace, none can come to Jesus unless it is given by His Father.

You think that God chooses arbitrarily those whom He gives to His son.

Fact is, the father chooses to give His Son those whom acknowledge the truth and acts upon it.
John 6:45b Every one who listens to the Father and learns from Him comes to me.

Quote:
I assume this is the whole of Eph 2: 8. Unless the Father gives the power of Grace to the believer, his faith can have no meaning in regards to salvation.

God has given grace to all mankind Titus 2:1, therefore, all mankind may have faith to be saved if they choose.

Quote:
So "faith and grace" both are given by the Father and it is not of ourselves. So the faith that is now mine is the Faith of Jesus Christ. Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the

This is coming from someone that bases his doctrine in a preposision "of" that is not even in the greek, put there only by bias with the translator, ignorance, or by best, archeic language which we do not speak anymore and is mis-interpreted.
The correct interpretation is "faith IN christ". Unless it is faith exactly like that of Christ(if God has faith in the first place), but still our own faith, because no one can possibly have another's faith.

Quote:
Lets do it once more.

Why?
Quote:
The assumption is not putting words to together, but rightly dividing the word of God.

ROFL Ha!!!
When have you "divided the word rightly"
Every post of yours is flooded with error & weird philosophy.

Quote:
This is not Calvinism or and assumption, but assuming that the world of God is true. In Christ:

No, it ain't calvinism, but it surly ain't right.
You have not yet explained how God is not responsible for the faithlessness & unrepentance of the world IF they are gifts which are only arbitrarily given to the lucky ones.
Furthermore, why wouldn't the Father want to give the "unlucky" one to His Son, if faith & repentanc were gifts(why wouldn't God want to save all if He could?)

 2008/7/22 11:55Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

John 6:44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Self explanatory.

Quote:

"""The correct interpretation is "faith IN christ". Unless it is faith exactly like that of Christ(if God has faith in the first place), but still our own faith, because no one can possibly have another's faith"""

This "in Christ" Is not the correct interpretation either. There is no preposition at all, so the correct interpretation is "Faith Christ".

"because no one can possibly have another's faith". That is like saying, no one can have another person's salvation, that Person being Christ. My faith and salvation is not of myself, it is the gift of God the Father who does nothing arbitrarily in making new creatures for His own house, son's of God.

John Calvin's Verse Commentary
Ephesians 2:8

8. For by grace are ye saved. This is an inference from the former statements. Having treated of election and of effectual calling, he arrives at this general conclusion, that they had obtained salvation by faith alone. First, he asserts, that the salvation of the Ephesians was entirely the work, the gracious work of God. But then they had obtained this grace by faith. On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man. God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us.

Ought we not then to be silent about free-will, and good intentions, and fancied preparations, and merits, and satisfactions? There is none of these which does not claim a share of praise in the salvation of men; so that the praise of grace would not, as Paul shews, remain undiminished. When, on the part of man, the act of receiving salvation is made to consist in faith alone, all other means, on which men are accustomed to rely, are discarded. Faith, then, brings a man empty to God, that he may be filled with the blessings of Christ. And so he adds, not of yourselves; that claiming nothing for themselves, they may acknowledge God alone as the author of their salvation.


--------------

My Faith is nothing and must be infused with the Faith of Christ unto salvation, then the statement, "by Grace through Faith" is true in the believer coming to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, also makes the statement, "Not of yourselves" the means of salvation being of God and God alone, that no man can boast.

In Christ: Phillip




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Phillip

 2008/7/22 16:02Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Quote:
The correct interpretation is "faith IN christ". Unless it is faith exactly like that of Christ(if God has faith in the first place), but still our own faith, because no one can possibly have another's faith

This "in Christ" Is not the correct interpretation either. There is no preposition at all, so the correct interpretation is "Faith Christ".


True, but no one can have anyone elses faith, why/how could we have Christ's?

Fact is that we have faith [b]in[/b] HIM and what HE said and did.

Quote:
is like saying, no one can have another person's salvation. My faith and salvation is not of myself,

What part of your salvation is not of you?
Are you redeemed?
are you delivered?
are you forgiven?
are you taken out from under the law?
are you taken from the curse of the law?

How is salvation totaly not of you?

[b]John 14:15[/b] [color=990000]If you love me, keep my commandments. [/color]
Are you to keep His commandments?
are you to love Hime?

[b]Rom 6:16[/b] [color=990000]Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of [b]obedience unto righteousness[/b]?[/color]
Are you to decide who will be you master?

[b]Luk 17:10[/b] [color=990000]So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/color]
Are you to do that which is commanded you?


Thyere is so much of you in salvation that you ignore onlr to keep your theology intact.


Quote:
God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace.

Again:
[b]Luke 17:10[/b] [color=990000]So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/color]
We must have the love of the truth that we might be saved(2Thes 2:10)
With this love for the truth, we must acknowlege it and act upon it, with out doing such we will not be saved.

Quote:
Faith, then, brings a man empty to God, that he may be filled with the blessings of Christ.

Amen, however faith is what we must have of our own as commanded.
If it isn't our own, then we remain faithless.

You have not yet explained how God is not responsible for the faithlessness & unrepentance of the world [b]IF[/b] they are gifts which are only arbitrarily given to the lucky ones.

 2008/7/22 16:56Profile





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