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JoanM
Member



Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797


 Re: Odd thinking in the question of has satan raised the dead in Jesus name in Lakeland...

The thinking is odd on this thread. WTA poses a question and refines it as not being about Lakeland.

[u][i]SI Readers, I am asking the question relating to current or past revivals if satan has ever raised the dead[/i][/u].

[u]This is what seems odd to me[/u]. Are you looking for a documentation from some trusted historian that on such and such a day…, or from one present in revival like Duncan Campbell, or, If you call what happened in Toronto a revival, for an eye-witness of a certain dead person being raised and it [b]somehow being shown to have been Satan who did it[/b]? That is odd to me. How would someone demonstrate that?

Do you see how other people posting could wonder, “What’s up here?” Could ask, “So if the boy was raised from the dead then …authentic ministry of God?” (Lakeland) Or report what they have seen, experienced, and learned first hand from those who once reported being raised from the dead by someone. (Hogan)

Trying to grasp you question I find: [i][u]The question I'm wrestling with is what happens when someone is authentically raised from the dead….It just happened that the idea did come from watching a report given by Todd Bentley on God TV from the revival….In all the time of studing revival and church history it never (until the posting of this thread) occured to me that "raising the dead" may be one a way to authenicate a move of God. Maybe not...[/u][/i]

First, I take it by “move of God” you mean revival because we all know [b]Romans 1:16[/b] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.[not signs/wonders]

Secondly, I’m thinking NOT a way to authenticate a move of God (sticking here with revival). [b]Mathew 24:24[/b] suggests to me, the level of deception Satan is capable of makes it almost impossible to tell: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. [b]God will allow this[/b]. The Bible is full of descriptions of what occurs in revival. [b]Things that are easy to tell rather than almost impossible to tell[/b].

Although I get it you would search for doctrine, Ginnyrose’s post does not seem to be off base in light of [b]Deut. 13:1-3[/b]: If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. [b]God would allow this[/b].

What are people after? What do they love? Do they crave raising the dead and seek God for that ability? Do they crave a dream that they can call a testimony? I know of two men who have said so about themselves. This does seem dangerous to me. [b]John 6:28-29[/b].

The men in [b]Matthew 7:21-23[/b] call Him “Lord” (sound doctrine), performed beneficial miracles (casting out demons), and because they expected to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, might truly have thought they had an assurance while alive. Testimonies of healing occur in every issue of the Christian Science Sentinel (lacks essential sound doctrine and believes lies). [b]God allows these things[/b] if healings, etc. are real.

I did notice that the in passage you quoted in the thread “True power of the cross,” Jesus did not say “and raise the dead.” I’m sure you would agree that in terms of doctrine, the true power of the cross opened a way to be reconciled to God (the gospel). Many other wonderful things followed and will follow but none of them will open a way to be reconciled to God.

With others on SI, I wonder about all the time put into this type of thread (distraction? stewardship?). And I’m new here. Yes warn. Yes exercise and grow. But oh, the weeping. Tonight I wept as looked outside at a fireworks display in my tiny town that draws 10,000 and all I could think was: 10,000 flock to a fireworks display. Is this what people that flock to “signs and miracles” are doing? Catching the best fireworks in the area? How we need biblical revival.

I hope articulating the oddness of your question reduces your irritation with some responses. I hope Mathew’s two points with Moses, underscore the problem with authenticating (proving of God) a revival, a whole ministry, or any person by any sign or wonder and an easier way. Reports in the Bible are so much easier. Why wrestle with this?

Sorry for so many words. Better to listen to a Godly message.
:-(

 2008/7/5 7:23Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: whose hand is on the faucet?

Hi everyone,


wta,


I think Chris has responded to you asking him about his background to make the statements that he initially made.



wta, if I may suggest, maybe you should consider your own responsibility in this, in bringing up this subject altogether here.







"The beginning of strife [i]is as[/i] when one letteth out water: therefore leave off contention, before it be meddled with."



- Proverbs 17:14(KJV)



Grace and peace,


Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/7/5 8:36Profile
wta
Member



Joined: 2007/4/8
Posts: 68
Canadian in America (Bremerton, WA) "A stranger in a strange land..."

 Re:

ChrisJD,

Relating to Chris, there is a grand difference between wrestling with a question and publically demeaning a person. I didn't wish to bring strife in any capacity but simply a question that struck me a curious. In modern history many have deemed revivals as demonic and that the healing and miracles are not of Jesus but of the devil. I'm addressing this challenge with the question, "Can this still be true relating to cases of deadraising?" Seems like a legitimate question but if it be a contentious one I humbly withdraw the question.
It was my hopes that others here on this forum, to which I am somewhat new, may have already wrestled with this question and had some relational input to offer, scripture reference or commentary from other revivalist throughout history. I have no personal interest in "naming names" and debating the authenticity of any specific ministry (especially based on conjecture) as I find that to be contentious. I'm sure we all have more productive this to do.
I'm afraid the direction of this thread has gone into areas that I personally don't feel led to continue but I am thankful for all who took their valuable time to consider this issue and post accordingly. Chris I honor you as a brother and am especially sympathetic to your concerns relating to false ministries and encourage you in the pursuit of truth as it truly is a noble pursuit.
My wife and I had our baby die recently and so the issue of "raising the dead" has been heavly on my heart as you may imagine and some of that pain may be at some level coming through...

All for souls,

wta


_________________
William Thomas Anderson

 2008/7/5 9:50Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4526


 Re:

Hi wta…

Quote:
I'm perplexed. What are your motives for posting to this forum to "call into question" the validity of David Hogan's ministry. What are you hoping to gain from this? All for words and phrasing are giving me as a reader the impression that you feel David Hogan is a liar and fake. Is this what you think? On what facts do you base you opinion? Is he guilty until proven innocent?

Brother, I too am perplexed that you maintain that the questioning of the supernatural claims of a man or the doctrines that he preaches is equal to “attacking” him. I am not calling into question his motives…or even his “ministry” (as you just insisted). Rather I am examining his claims, doctrines and demonstrations.

As I said from my first comment, I am amazed that someone’s ministry (in this case, David Hogan’s) could claim to have raised 500 people from the dead (as you just indicated), yet we don’t hear anything about it anywhere – except from the ministry itself. I am not saying he is “guilty” of anything. However, I can safely say that I disagree with the doctrinal views and theatrics presented by David Hogan when he came to the church that I attended. I disagree with the fact that his “messages” were comprised almost entirely of supernatural tales that could not be validated by the Word of God. Whether or not he is a liar or a fake is between David Hogan and God (and the people who give him money).
Quote:

Now if you were really concerned why wouldn't you just do what I did and contact the ministry and go down and see the witnesses yourself? If you are prepared to do that please feel free to pm me and I'll give you the contact information and you can go to the "source" with whom you have the questions and call into question all your concerns. I would be blessed to help with that. PM me and let me know...

Actually, I did attempt to contact his “ministry.” I tried calling and visiting when I was driving through Raymondville, Texas on the way to my in-laws’ home in Weslaco, Texas (about 25 minutes away). However, I couldn’t find a telephone number in the phone book or via directory assistance at the time, and my friends who live in Raymondville, Texas (where his ministry is headquartered) had never heard of the guy. I did, however, write an email with my concerns. It went unanswered.

However, let me stress that I do not lose sleep over David Hogan’s claims. I couldn’t care less if he claimed to have raised a million people from the dead. Why? I just don’t care for his doctrine or methods. I don’t care for his heavy emphasis on the supernatural. I don’t care for his theatrics on stage. I don’t care for the authoritarian manner in which he stakes his claim to be an “apostle of God.” I don’t care for the way he warns people who might question something he says or does. My opinion of the man’s messages is pretty much the same as others like him. I have never desired to visit Toronto for their supposed “revival.” I never really wanted to visit Pensacola. I have no desire to follow or contact the ministry of Rodney Howard Browne (which I do feel is dangerously in error). I have no desire to visit Lakeland. I don’t really care much to listen or follow men like Todd Bentley, David Hogan, Benny Hinn, Oral Roberts, Roberts Liardon, Jesse Duplantis or similar men.

Why? I just don’t care much for their “ministries.” Their words and actions just do not move me. This is not to say that I do not pray for them. I have prayed for them and the situations that they have been involved with. My prayers are not selfish or convoluted by my own opinions either. I pray that God would reveal Himself to them – just as I desire to know Him in a greater, more intimate way myself. Even if I disagree completely with the views of these men (or that I could believe that their doctrine borders on paganism), I still believe that the end is not yet written for these men. God could still reveal himself to the most well-meaning but flawed preacher and tell him, “[i]I am Jesus whom thou persecutes[/i]” (Acts 9:5) – or something along that line. I believe that God is more than able to take even a well-meaning teacher of false doctrines and transform him into a mighty vessel for His Kingdom!

While I will not point my finger at the hearts or motives of any of these men, I feel entirely able to express my concern or uneasiness for what they preach or proclaim. Why? We are encouraged by God to “test everything.” Not only should we question everything we hear or see – but we should constantly remember that even the most sincere believers can be wrong. If I remember correctly, Paul humbly but sharply rebuked Peter due to double standard. If I see someone spreading something that might not be correct, I can share this without worrying that I am “touching God’s anointed.” In fact, there might even be a danger in remaining silent. There is not a person alive that I trust well enough to follow every single detail of what he says or claims. I was privileged to meet with Leonard Ravenhill while I was a teen. He gave me a lot of advice in that meeting – but the most significant was to “test everything.” The Church of God is in the condition it is now because the Church of God is the culmination of 2000 years of slight deviations from its original condition.

Finally, I don’t think that the issue that you raised should be whether or not a move of God can be judged by someone supposedly being raised from the dead. We might consider first whether or not this boy was even raised from the dead in the first place. Regardless of the outcome – we do not judge any man or move by the supposed miracles that he might be able to perform. That is a worldly consideration, and we should not be moved as such. Remember, the Antichrist will have the power to perform miracles and deceive (if it were possible) the very elect. Our focus should be on God and Him alone. When I have watched the Todd Bentley videos at work, there just seems to be an unhealthy amount of Todd Bentley and a deficient amount of truth (this is my own opinion).

I do find it interesting that the revivals that focused on a simple and holy need to walk with God (rather than upon supernatural manifestations) seem to have a much deeper and lasting effect. Many of the people that I know who traveled to Toronto and Pensacola or to the meetings of the latest new display of the “supernatural” (holy laughter, gold dust, gold fillings, etc…) have admitted that they are no better off today with their relationship with God than before they went. The point of any move of God is not in what God can do – but with the fact that He will allow us to know Him (and that such intimacy isn’t confined by the outward manifestations of the supernatural or to a meeting place and location).

The bottom line, as far as I can tell, is that God is not confined to a man or a location. If a person or place is gaining fame for the supposed move of God, then such a thing needs to decrease. Why? God is not confined to a location (the veil has been torn) or outside of the heart of everyman (because Jesus made a way that we could all know and fellowship with God). But the final judge of whether or not a man or move is from God has nothing to do with supposed claims of the supernatural (or tales of the “dead were raised”). The final judge of a man is in what he proclaims. Can we sift through the stories of the supernatural and find out what this man’s messages are made of? Do we see Jesus through it all – or just more mysterious tales of the supernatural?

May God raise the dead! But may He start with the living dead – those who live for 120 years without every rising to the knowledge of Eternity!

-------

By the way, I will be praying for you and your family. My oldest sister lost a child and it was a difficult situation. May the Lord give you more of Himself as you heal through this situation.


_________________
Christopher

 2008/7/5 13:30Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Try a search

wta,

One of the things about this forum is the give and take, the ability to consider and reconsider. It also suggests further research if you want to call it that, there was a suggestion to do a search on this forum that would be helpful ...

Quote:
I didn't log onto this forum to confirm or deny the authenticity of David Hogan's ministry and I am now finished discussing this issure on this forum



Ah, but dear brother you cannot in turn do that very thing and then dismiss yourself from it now can you? You are certainly free to walk away from it, but don't let legitimate concerns from your own brethren leave you with a bitterness because they put matters to the test.

Quote:
being unavoidably real and witnessed by and large by the unbelievers en masse.



Quote:
His claims where unsupported and very wrong. I know David Hogans's ministry personally as I am a long time friend with one ot the section commanders in Mexico. I have been there personally and have person proof of teh authenticity of that ministry.



And we are to believe you ... because you said so? Brother, there is good reason for the concerns that many of us have and why I mentioned the search. You have to watch for the accusations that you assume and return fire over. There are many things within the following that are disturbing, much in his own words. If you choose to either ignore it or remain silent, that is your prerogative, but just remember that it is your own contributions to defend that makes the association.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=5952&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]David Hogan Conference Video from May, 2005[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=9258&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]David Hogan?[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=11769&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]David Hogan - 350 raised from the dead[/url]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quote:
I am asking the question relating to current or past revivals if satan has ever raised the dead. I've read many opinions which I agree with that satan can do signs which can lead people into a false revival that is not of God. The question I'm wrestling with is what happens when someone is authentically raised from the dead. There is the issue of authenticity yes, of course. What should be required as documentation to prove a person is raised from the dead. If this isn't clearly defined then every claim can be thrown out as false...



Documentation seems to be that which cannot be denied. I think we are always going to have a large problem with this no matter how it is attempted. On the one hand there is an expectation that is to be met with skepticism from unbelievers and in this day, believers alike. Who can fault them? It is really no different than a court of law, [i]the preponderance of the evidence[/i]. The easiest is just documentation. A death certificate would suffice and a live interview afterward would seem to be enough. Or perhaps a cemetery visit where the earth has been thrust upward from the downside, forensics would make this quite plain. How about something akin to a Sasquatch sighting? You know, the grainy film footage that has been going around for years, we have video of everything under the sun these days, camera phones and the like, with all the reports somebody must have caught this on tape somewhere ...

Am pushing this to make a point. These claims are not as difficult to prove as they are to easily suspect. The difficulty again is that for believers we need not be taken up with so much surprise. We believe the reports in the scriptures and we believe Jesus Himself was raised from the dead. We also believe Paul's reports ([i]Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?[/i] Act 26:8) and just what gives us any real reason to believe them?

Credibility has to be one of the first and foremost. For us, we are in essence believing 'here-say', that is, reporting after the fact. Careful what derivative I am drawing off of that term, I mean only 'report'. A good instance in scripture is;

[i]And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen[/i] 1Co 15:4-6

In other words, there are more witness's, go verify if you must or are in need of further evidence, they are still alive. But again, this is still 'report' of witnessing actual events. How can we trust any of it?

Character and credibility. Lawyers are masters at this and just as well often spurious with the truth to pragmatic ends. But this is the rigorous examination of what makes up a persons 'believability' and why they must do some serious poking around to find out just how trustworthy statements are, how they compare with other collaborative evidence, actual or testimonial. If the person is a known thief his credibility is going to be rightly suspect. If he has lied in the past his track record is marred. Rightly so.

This may seem completely obvious but I must wonder at a number of things that this all shows about us, about Christianity in this day and about unbelievers in general.

Paul West further pressed the point;

Quote:
resurrections in the NT being unavoidably real and witnessed by and large by the [i]unbelievers en masse[/i].



Do note the emphasis on [i]unbelievers[/i]. This is where we should be hearing it from if so many of these claims are true, they are the ones who should be [i]astonished[/i] more so than we. Think about it. What this days Christian is ultimately exemplifying is an exposure of their unbelief by way of their over exuberance, it's as if to say "[i]Can you believe it?[/i]". In fact is that not precisely what it is? "[i]We really never believed it in the first place."[/i]? If some of us were more honest. Or at least our faith is more based on [i]hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?[/i] and contrary to [i]be not faithless, but believing, blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.[/i]

[i]For we walk by faith, not by sight[/i]

Some excitement and joy, thankfulness and praise would be a matter of course, [i]of course[/i]. Earlier I had mentioned in regards to this incident the word 'phenominal' and later wondered if I hadn't contradicted myself. To the mother and father of this child it would certainly be phenomenal wouldn't it? At once dead and now alive. My great issue and problem with all this is really not even a matter of 'believability' or not, it's what is done to it and with it ...

Boasting. For one thing there is something very ... churlish and deflating, crass and despicable to be treating this in the manner that it is treated. If it was me and my son or daughter I would like to imagine that my disposition would be one more of awe and reverence, coupled with joy and ... humbleness of spirit. If that all sounds too pious and righteous I am really trying to get at something else. There is a confidence and sweetness, a contentment when the Holy Spirit steals over oneself, where is room for boasting? And where does anyone get the audacity to treat someone else's profound moment as if it is fodder for their 'ministry' and that which can be tossed about like a football? The last person or people I would be giving any testimony to would be those that would show such disregard and disrespect to such a profundity. Granted, keeping it out of the hands of others might prove impossible but certainly the effort to keep it quiet I would be more inclined to, it is the mode and manner of this day that I fear in it's extremities. The trustworthy, those that have some control over their impulses ... that could keep matters to themselves ... we just have to just spew anything without thought so often.

Defending. The other great oxymoron. We have it predominantly with our 'prophets' of the hour and in many other attributes. The more the defending, the more the doubting, the less the credibility. I will show my bias here, but I have a much easier time believing Zac Poonen if he was to report someone being raised from the dead than the loud, obnoxious, defending sorts of either the men or their followers who have so little evidence (character and credibility) and often so many flamboyant, exaggerated claims, flat out lies or ...

[i]Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, [/i] Col 2:18

"Puffed up" by his fleshly mind. Let's face it, it's hard to hear, but even the sincere can be swayed, none of us are exempted from the tricks of the gray matter or the devil. Will get to that, this matter of possibility of the devil raising the dead. Just one more thing. When it comes right down to it, this whole realm of miraculous matters really can fall into the "I don't know" section of the brain storage for all I care and I am not bothered by it, why do I need to come to some conclusion over matters that I am not privy to in the first place? But beyond that just what is it that we think we are proving? Wouldn't it be more astonishing to the unbelievers amongst us to see something like this and then wonder at the saints for their very [i]lack[/i] of astonishment? That to them (us), this is all just a matter of course, that they really did believe it all along, that we were what we say; "Believers"? Not surprised, not at all, just normative, everyday Christianity where possibilities abound, ([i]The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.[/i]) Remember even the Lords own words to Nathanael after a real disclosure of what He knew of him;

[i]Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.[/i]

The last of the last things ... People do lose their heart beats for awhile and then revive, it happens. That in this case as it was reported the Lords Name was ... invoked, hate to use that word here, is not what I am appealing to, I am to be honest, more inclined to believe that it happened as was described and praise God for it. But I don't know one way or the other for certain. That it might have happened in the midst of the goings on there ... neither proves nor disapproves anything, it still comes back not to the people in question but to those making fanfare of it all and all the other unsubstantiated claims, tossed around like so much tabloid material that will be forgotten in short order.

When my mother died just a little over a year ago and just minutes before I had arrived, I prayed once again to the Lord that He would return life back into her body, if it was His will to do so. And the honesty of that moment was as sincere as I could have ever been. It was a very strange and sweet time in those minutes that followed. I understood, was content and still mournful. What death was, why it had to come, why it will come to us all. There was a sense, not of doubting, but that my request would be denied, I knew it while the words were still forming in my mind. There was no pining away and no beating of the breast over it, my sense was that of [i]the Lord has need of her[/i]. I was to be honest in those moments even a bit jealous, no more striving, no more sin, no more confusion of this mad world.

Just as well have had my own 'near death' experience, part of the whole testimony if you will. I can tell of what happened precisely and know without a doubt just how close I truly was to the end of life on this earth. Just moments away. The Lord had mercy on me, heard my cry and stopped the whole proceeding. It literally and figuratively and most importantly filled me with so much fear, so much true regard for what had happened that it changed my life in actuality. At least for a good many years afterwords. And I couldn't care less what is made of it in the minds of the hearers. It happened.

All this just to express my indignation, my sadness, my ire if you will at the way things, life and death matters are treated in these sort of constructs. This is series business. Life and death. True conversion in the core of the human being. Eternal matters, especially at the very door of them ... Too make light, to make sport, to cheapen and be careless, flippant, crass ...


Can the devil raise the dead? It may be a real good question after all, but with a caution. Is it possible, is there any warrant for such a thing? Would he? After all, getting us (humans) dead and out of the way seems part and parcel ...

[i]Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.[/i] Joh 8:44

A liar and a murderer, guess it comes back to that whole issue of credibility doesn't it? But capacity wise, permission wise ... This comes to mind regarding Job;

[i]And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.[/i] Job 2:6

Meaning he could have, with permission it appears, gone so far as to have caused Job's death. But to raise it ... the scriptures seem very silent. Other than the masquerading that we know of, as an angel of light, I don't think I would want to go there with any of this and that means even giving the impression that something like Lakeland and the happenings there, with all our concerns notwithstanding ... attributing one way or the other, sincerely or not, the "how's" and "why's", or even "who", it may lead to a lot of speculation, but I do not know that it is very beneficial.

From what I can gather from scripture as a whole, in principle and in precedent, very unlikely. Let's just not use it as 'proving' ground, even if that is the farthest of intent, it can to lead to that.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/7/5 13:38Profile
wta
Member



Joined: 2007/4/8
Posts: 68
Canadian in America (Bremerton, WA) "A stranger in a strange land..."

 Re:

crsschk,

"I didn't log onto this forum to confirm or deny the authenticity of David Hogan's ministry and I am now finished discussing this issure on this forum"

If you'd like to turn this thread into a review of David Hogan's ministry feel free, you are a moderator. You have judged me to be bitter and that couldn't be farther from the truth. I started thread this to discuss a specific issue. Chris in his first post reported that David Hogan claimed to have raised 500 people from the dead which is a gross exagreration of the truth. As I've already stated David Hogan's testimony is that he has prayered for and see made well about 30 people but his ministry in total was in the hundreds. You will find the links you supplied to support this.
Chris was in error and I pointed it out, that's it. I may be out of order here though. If it's ok on this forum to name names and make judgemental, belittling, unsupported claims against brothers in the Lord and their ministries then I am out of order and apologise. Though this now isn't the case with Chris and his post it has become very common in today's so called church to say whatever people think with no accountability for the words. In fact its become the custom and when I address the issue I often become the focus of attack. Very sad how common this really is. I'll admit it is one of my greatest distains. It just doesn't line up with the Love of Jesus Christ...

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
1Co 13:5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
1Co 13:6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
1Co 13:7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
1Co 13:8 Love never fails.

1Co 13:13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Jas 1:26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is useless.

Jas 3:8 But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Jas 3:9 With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God.
Jas 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so.

Thank you for your imput on my initial question relating to satan raising the dead. There have been many wolves in sheeps clothing over the centuries that for obvious reasons could do nothing but "talk" but it's Jesus himself that gave us His breakdown on what a true believer looks like and there are many so called Christians today who pretend that these verses don't exsist...

Mat 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.


Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Jesus himself tells us that there is MUCH more to a real disciples than people who can quote scripture. Now we also know that satan can work signs and wonders and this is the challenge from the other side. Just because a person can heal the sick in Jesus name does not solidify him to being a true believer as well.

Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

I thank the Lord that He was so gracious to give us this insight. The true believers as shown by Jesus above consistantly come under attack even as Jesus did with claims that they are doing miracles by the power of satan.

Chris,

Your last post was very helpful in understanding that you are not a person who spends a few lame minutes reading a report on the internet and makes judgements. You did make, imo genuine efforts to chase down the truth relating to David Hogan and I commend you for that, precious few actually will step away from arm chair quarterbacking and get into the game.
I asked you for the information you gave in your last post in my second post, please reread and you will see things would have played out very differntly had you shown you're efforts to investigate truth in the beginning. I would have really liked to see this info in your first post or at lease some of it and that would have been a good sign to me and other readers of your qualified opinion (at least qualified to the best of your ablity).
I still feel Chris that your original post on this thread was not posted in the Spirit of Love but in judgement. I may be wrong as that has happened before but if you reread the post you may from some persective understand why I've interpreted this to be possible. I recommend using great care and caustion to insure that if you are going to give the impression of passing judgement publically on a brother in the Lord or a ministry to do so in a way that it is obvious that you have done much reseach and are doing so in the Spirit of Love for concern for that brother and all those effected by that ministry. Thank you for your concerns for me and my family, I'm very thankful for your well wishing and prayers. Glory to the Lord.

I don't feel satan can raise the dead. The only one's in human history to have this ability is our Lord God and His disciples. Until otherwise proven this will be a sign that at the very least a person "may" be walking with God provided the rest of their lives line up. I again will say that using the Lakeland report was not the best way to intro this subject, I was unaware of the history here on that subject.

All for souls,

wta


_________________
William Thomas Anderson

 2008/7/5 14:59Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4526


 Re:

Hi wta...

Thank you for your cordial reply. I am sure that we are both working to the same end -- to know Jesus Christ and to walk in the Truth.

Just to clarify a couple of things in this last post:

Quote:
I started thread to discuss a specific issue. Chris in his first post reported that David Hogan claimed to have raised 500 people from the dead which is a gross exagreration from the truth. As I've already stated David Hogan's testimony is that he has prayered for and see made well about 30 people but his ministry in total was in the hundreds.
Chris was in error and I pointed it out, that's it.

Perhaps I should have made this more clear with my words. David Hogan, in the meetings that I attended, said that he had personally seen over 500 people raised from the dead as a result of [u]his[/u] ministry. As you can tell, it is easy to mistake this statement as a personal claim on his own behalf (rather than seeing his ministry as being a network of other ministers). He never clarified his comments at those meetings to say that it was a group of ministers who raised over 500 people from the dead. He simply said that he personally saw these things as a result fo "his" ministry. Regardless whether there are claims of 30 or 500, I think that my point was clear: Why do these reports only come from David Hogan and his supporters? Why do we not hear of this from anyone other than people associated with his ministry?

Like I said, I have been to Mexico quite a few times. I traveled mostly to the Tarahumara in the rugged pine-covered mountains of the Sierra Madre Occidental in Chihuahua. God moved mightily in those meetings...and word quickly spread throughout the mountain range where we worked. In Spanish towns and villages, there are newspaper and TV reports any time a person sees a burned spot on a tortilla that resembles a human face. Major news outlets travel far and wide in order to cover the story. Yet we have never heard anything about David Hogan or the dead being raised as a result of his ministry in Mexico. It just seems a little strange...and I fear that those "raised from the dead" stories might be similar to the one I mentioned earlier regarding the dentist and his son. Even worse, I do fear that those stories might resemble the same sort of stories of healing and miracles that are repeated at Benny Hinn meetings. It is our responsibility as believers to question such things...and let nothing move us.
Quote:
I asked you for the information you gave in your last post in my second post, please reread and you will see things would have played out very differntly had you shown you're efforts to investigate truth in the beginning. I would have really liked to see this info in your first post or at lease some of it and that would have been a good sign to me and other reads of your qualified opinion (at least qualified to the best of your ablity).

I, too, think that you might discover that I endeavored to answer your questions from my earlier posts. They may have not been as clear...but I do believe that this was my attempt.
Quote:

I still feel Chris that your original post on this thread was not posted in the Spirit of Love but in judgement.

Actually, I feel that my original post in this thread was posted in a spirit of loving contemplation. A "spirit of love" does not supercede the need to "test everything" (I Thessalonians 5:21). One of the greatest things that we learn from the Word of God is that God is able to use flawed men. It seems like the greater the flaws -- the more God was willing to reveal those flaws to us. Abraham, Noah, Moses, David, Samson, etc... -- they were NOT perfect men. They made some whopper of mistakes (and poor David would have probably been excommunicated from our midst!). Yet God included these flaws, I believe, to demonstrate that He can still work with flawed men. He just needs for us to come to Him completely and willingly.

It wasn't my intention to judge the heart of David Hogan or Todd Bentley, and I think that a re-examination of my posts might reveal that. My intent was simply to examine the claims of such men. This is entirely Scriptural and SHOULD be done. Unfortunately, there are some who equate such scrutiny as a personal "attack" or "spiritual doubt and unbelief." If there is anything that I was most disappointed at from David Hogan's words at the Church that I attended, it was his extreme views on authority. He rhetorically warned against questioning his stories, his words or his authority. This is, in my view, entirely unBiblical. We should encourage people to examine our Words and to search the Scriptures to make sure that what we say lines up with God's Word.
Quote:
I don't feel satan can raise the dead. The only one's in human history to have this ability is our Lord God and His disciples. Until otherwise proven this will be a sign that at the very least a person "may" be walking with God provided the rest of their lives line up. I again will say that using the Lakeland report was not the best way to intro this subject, I was unaware of the history here on that subject.


I don't know if Satan can raise the dead or not...but I know that he could certainly fake it. But the point is that such things shouldn't move us anyway. Our eyes and hearts and entire faith should rest firmly upon what we know from God's Word -- and not at what we see, hear or feel. God isn't always in the fire, wind and earthquake, you know.

That being said: I know that God can raise the dead. Why doesn't He do it with more frequency? Perhaps it is selfish of us to raise the dead? For a child of God, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. As much as we may long to continue our relationship or fellowship with such people, it is still "great gain" to be dead (because only our earthly bodies are dead).

Do those who die go immediately to stand before God -- or are they "resting with their fathers?" I think that we have a very limited understanding of life and death and these sort of timetables because our minds have a limited understanding of Eternity. God is Eternal. He always was...and always will be. His Name, after all, is the I AM. This concept of Eternity transcends the limits of our human minds. Perhaps God knew us before we were born because God is ever present in (what to us is) the future? Perhaps our deaths result in a "sleeping" -- and for the dead, they wake up in what seems like an instant for which all of human history has transpired? This could explain just how Jesus spoke about a rich man who went to Hell...even if his day in the Court of Judgment hasn't yet transpired.

I guess that the bottom line is that the claims or even demonstration of "raising the dead" is not the criteria by which to determine whether a person is truly a "man of God" or not. We know that there are false signs and lying wonders. The true measure of a man of God is by using the measuring stick of God's Word. It is true that we shouldn't judge the heart or even eternal condition of such an individual (at least, I don't feel secure enough to do that). But all of us are accountable by our words and actions.

Even if Todd Bentley (or anyone else) seemed to raise the dead -- it doesn't provide an exemption for any obvious violation of Scripture. The measurement of how "spiritual" a person is has nothing to do with their supposed abilities to perform miracles. It has a lot to do, however, to how that person walks with God when no one else is watching. The only measure by which we can be sure is the Word of God.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/7/5 15:52Profile
wta
Member



Joined: 2007/4/8
Posts: 68
Canadian in America (Bremerton, WA) "A stranger in a strange land..."

 Re:

Quote:

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Even if Todd Bentley (or anyone else) seemed to raise the dead -- it doesn't provide an exemption for any obvious violation of Scripture. The measurement of how "spiritual" a person is has nothing to do with their supposed abilities to perform miracles. It has a lot to do, however, to how that person walks with God when no one else is watching. The only measure by which we can be sure is the Word of God.
:-)



I believe we are after the same thing, now after understanding your heart and intentions. There are so many who flipantly say things hurtful against others in the body, I find it very hard to swallow as what we say unto the least of the brethren we say it unto Him and we are all one body...
We can know a tree by it's fruit and Jesus is very clear that the fruit of a person's life will tell the truth of what kind of tree they are but yes I agree that God's word is final in all things. Very well said Chris. It's funny the more I hear of your testimony the more I think you'd be the type of brother I could get on well with, it's rare for a man to "chase" truth with a great hunger.
I spent three weeks in Pueblo region way in the mountains ministering to the Nahautl indians with Freedom Ministries and I am friends with one of the section leaders, a man who has been with that ministry for 18 years in the jungles of Mexico. I stayed with him and his family when I was there doing research and I will state for the record that he is one of the purest, holiest men I have ever met and for his family I will say the same. I saw an amazing goliness in his wife and children. An amazing display of biblical Christianity, imo. He has worked side by side with bro. David for the entire time and has gone on record as a witness to bro. David's authenticity. It's not my heart to sway anyone to believe in David Hogan. It's my heart to sway people to believe in Jesus and if they want to question any of His minister to do so with great care, love and with facts. Chris thank you for taking the time you have with this thread to do your best to do just that.

All for souls,

wta


_________________
William Thomas Anderson

 2008/7/5 16:16Profile
JoanM
Member



Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797


 Re: Thank you Father

What a gift: Crsschk writes:

[u]What this days Christian is ultimately exemplifying is an exposure of their unbelief by way of their over exuberance, it's as if to say "Can you believe it?"[/u].

This adds a perspective to what broke my heart last night: “[u]Is this what people that flock to “signs and miracles” are doing? Catching the best fireworks in the area? How we need biblical revival.[/u]” And to why I keep coming to “build up holy faith”, in my prayer time for revival and the conferences. Let me be clear here: It is not that Revival builds up Holy faith (though it could) but that Holy faith in needful in our revival praying. Jude has much to say on this.

I hate what I see plainly displayed as the subject of the fan-fare in Lakeland. I am so ashamed before our Father. I remember the Divine Love that flows from knowing He, not I, judges and that His Divine Mercy is great. I also remember, years ago, how He directed my attention (through mature brothers and sisters) to what is normal in prayer. May He keep our thanksgiving clean of any shred of unbelief.

WTA: Though we are all still in the flesh and suffer in loss, and suffer in the loss of our brothers and sisters,…I’m not sure what I was going to say, except that I am so sorry about your child and desire God to continue to encourage you. I can see in your great love for His Word and strong heart for Him, and action, His love toward you.

 2008/7/5 17:00Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Carefully

Quote:
"I didn't log onto this forum to confirm or deny the authenticity of David Hogan's ministry and I am now finished discussing this issure on this forum"

If you'd like to turn this thread into a review of David Hogan's ministry feel free, you are a moderator.



If you haven't noticed, this is your continuing contradiction ... I don't have a bone to pick with you, however some things need to be made plain;

Quote:
You have judged me to be bitter and that couldn't be farther from the truth.



No, I said don't let it leave you bitter ...

Quote:
I may be out of order here though. If it's ok on this forum to name names and make judgemental, belittling, unsupported claims against brothers in the Lord and their ministries then I am out of order and apologise.



But you are not bitter ... nor biting nor sarcastic?

"Jas 1:26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is useless."

Quote:
Though this now isn't the case with Chris and his post it has become very common in today's so called church to say whatever people think with no accountability for the words. In fact its become the custom and when I address the issue I often become the focus of attack. Very sad how common this really is. I'll admit it is one of my greatest distains.



Holding you accountable here as well.

"Don't jump to conclusions" is a banner that could, should fly over this forum. There is a lot of discussion, years worth amongst the members. Throwing out insinuations and veiled or not so veiled accusations, not looking at nor applying the words chosen to oneself first ...

Quote:
I recommend using great care and caustion to insure that if you are going to give the impression of passing judgement publically on a brother in the Lord or a ministry to do so in a way that it is obvious that you have done much reseach and are doing so in the Spirit of Love for concern for that brother and all those effected by that ministry.



I recommend that you take a dose of your own medicine as it applies here. But don't mistake passing judgment for testing all things, too often the accusations belong on the side of the accusers; passing judgment on the "judgment passers" in their perception ... :-?

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=21919&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]Testing all things on SermonIndex [/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/7/6 0:45Profile





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