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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : NASB or NKJV??

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tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
I grow tired of being painted into a corner by prejudice against the KJV people.



And I grow tired of being painted into a corner by prejudice against the modern translation people.

Quote:
Both sides paint with a broad brush...



I agree.

Quote:
but it is the modern version side that paints KJV people as "ignorant" or "misinformed".



I disagree. It works both ways. While the "moderns" have and do at times say this, the KJV folks have also leveled these same accusations.


Its okay for someone to have a differing opinion...even if it's wrong ;-)


_________________
TJ

 2008/7/2 15:22Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Krispy…

I understand your perspective. Out of all of the pro-KJV individuals that I know, I have always respected your opinion and sensibilities in the matter of textual criticism – even though I disagree with your ultimate conclusion (well, at least I think that I do).

I have read more posts and opinions on textual criticism than I ever wanted to. I was surprised to learn of so much prejudice both ways. It is imperative for believers to TEST EVERYTHING in regard to this matter. There must be honest research performed before an opinion is formed. Unfortunately, it has been my experience here at SermonIndex that many of the KJV-only crowd (of which I do NOT consider you, Krispy, a part of) have been influenced in a single direction via biased works. Even having read many of these works, I later found through critical research that many of the often repeated claims are bogus. In fact, most of the “defense” of the KJV here and elsewhere usually results in an attack on modern translations like the NIV. I feel that this is a strange tactic of “defense.”

Quote:

You say this as if he was a dyed in the wool Catholic... which he was not. While it is true that he was raised a Catholic, and never left the RCC, he was highly critical of the Pope. He was highly critical of the excesses of the Catholic clergy. He was highly critical of over indulgences of many monks. And he was highly critical of many of the RCC's doctrines.

While he was not a Reformer like Martin Luther or the others, he certainly had the spirit of one within the church itself.

So lets not misrepresent Erasmus, knowingly or unknowingly, in order to proove our points. It's called "bearing false witness" when you dont give all the facts.


Hmmm. Krispy, I think that you have gone a little too far in “reading between the lines” here (or perhaps “poor translation” of the essence of my post ;-) ). My entirely truthful statement about Erasmus was not the same as those who spread gossip, rumors or conjecture about a person or work. Erasmus was a practicing Catholic (whether we want to admit it or not, or whether or not he had issue with the Pope or certain doctrines of that “Church”). In addition, he was a self-admitted “humanist.” What is so “false” about this? Yes, he had his issues with certain practices within the RCC – but so did Michelangelo (and quite a few believers and unbelievers through the years). But in the end, we have a group of people embracing the “inerrancy” of a KJV that is based upon a “Received Text” that was almost entirely translated by a single, wayward Dutch Catholic humanist. Yet ironically, those same KJV-only folk are the ones who point the finger of heresy at strong academic translations taken from a plethora of other ancient text sources. It is a bit strange, and a lot like the pot calling the kettle “black.”
Quote:

While what you say is true... the NIV is a rendering of a certain underlying text, I grow tired of folks who claim that all KJV people think that the NIV writers purposely left things out. Most of us on this site who are KJV people do know what we're talking about. We do understand the issues.

I grow tired of being painted into a corner by prejudice against the KJV people. Both sides paint with a broad brush... but it is the modern version side that paints KJV people as "ignorant" or "misinformed".

It just aint so, brother... and you know better.


Krispy, you are very different than the typical KJV-only advocates who visit the forum with a mission (as if they were sent by God) to spit upon every version except their cherished and supposedly “infallible” translation. How many KJV-only threads have there been where a brother claims that the “modern” translations “purposely left out” or “mistranslated” important words, sections, or even entire passages that are “rightfully” included in the KJV? They almost NEVER mention that these differences reflect the differences in source material. If we want to be very honest, you would certain acknowledge this to be true. While you yourself aren’t guilty of this (although, I am not sure about your current defense of the word “Easter” in Acts chapter 12), you know that there are very loud individuals who spread such statements that seemingly indicate that something “sinister” took place when the translators of the NIV got together. Should we simply review the many Bible translation threads over the past few years?
Quote:

You may disagree with me, and draw different conclusions about this issue that I... but you cant say I'm "ignorant" or "misinformed".


You’re right that I might disagree with you based upon the conclusion that I drew from my own research. However, it is a stretch to claim that I said that YOU (or anyone else) was “ignorant” or “misinformed.” I do, however, feel that anyone who limits their “research” to a few pro-KJV books or websites has greatly diminished the credibility of their argument or defense of the KJV. If someone wants to question the integrity of the NIV – then they should at least contact the people who actually translated it! Unfortunately, we cannot contact the translators of the KJV concerning their thoughts about the original 1611 KJV. However, I have noticed that the arguments presented about the supremacy of the KJV often do not reflect the translators’ words in the original preface to the KJV.

As always, I think that the question of textual supremacy comes down to a question of the sources used for translation and the textual criticism methods by which the work was translated. I don’t know that ANYONE could claim with absolute certainty that the Textus Receptus used for the KJV is superior in every way to the Alexandrian (et al) texts used for the NIV. I understand the arguments on both sides – but I think that it is unwise to take a final position on a matter that is not ultimately clear.


_________________
Christopher

 2008/7/2 16:10Profile









 Re:

Hey guys... was in a bit of a bad mood when I wrote what I wrote. I apologize. I'm dealing with a certain level of spiritual compromise in an organization of which I am one of the leaders, and it has me a bit irritated.

I know y'all understand where I am coming from, and I was tickled when you said I am a different kind of KJV advocate. Probably because my only cause is truth... I dont fight for a cause for the sake of fighting for the cause... know what I mean?

Anyway, to quote Al Gore, I was a bit "snippy" earlier when there was no reason for me to be.

I love y'all... hopefully you know that!

Krispy

 2008/7/2 16:22









 Re: Lets Calm down please

I started this thread because I was curious on the what others thought about the NASB or NKJV. I have had some concerns about the NASB in there choice of words. I don't know why everyone uses the NASB, I only use it because I have heard it is considered one the best in word for word. But why? Who determines this? I posted an example I stumbled on when I was studying 1 Peter. I though the NKJV was better with the text, than the NASB. I actually got a better understanding from the NKJV.

I am actually thinking about getting a NKJV. I wasn't sure about the NASB anymore.

Lets not turn this into a debate! The KJV is great and will continue to be the favorite. For me I have a hard time reading through it. Lets no turn this thread into a KJV debate.

Can't we all just get along! :-P

Love
Mike

 2008/7/2 17:38
Smokey
Member



Joined: 2005/2/21
Posts: 417
Edmonton Alberta Cda.

 Re: NASB or NKJV??


I always cringe when I see a discussion start up about bible translations. Without fail the modern translation camp squares off with the KJV camp, and there is a quick fierce flurry of verbal salvoes fired back and forth, nothing is resolved, and eventually both sides tire of the fuss and thankfully let the thread die. Nothing much changes. Blessings Greg ;-)


_________________
Greg

 2008/7/2 18:31Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: The translations adventure

Quote:
Can't we all just get along!


Bless you, Mike, I appreciate your caution against division. After all, there are plenty of “bible scholars” out there who would love to see us argue over bible translation “errors”. It props up their own mission: to discredit the reliability of the Bible. When we realize that we have many enemies “out there” who have been writing convincing “reliable-latest- researched” proof that the Bible is a big fake, then we will realize that we can’t afford to divide ourselves over the Bible. People need to know that it is trustworthy.

Last year I did a research paper on Bible translations and was fascinated by what I discovered. There is plenty information out there on the subject. In fact, when you start digging, you see that this is no small battle. And yes, there is certainly a lot of mudslinging going on in the family of God. But as you proceed, you develop discernment between who are speaking with authority and who with their fixed opinion.


The NASB is a fine translation, but, as many have felt, the translation team tried too hard to translate word for word. Thus you see some woodenness in the language. Greek and English are very different. Translators do need to exercise some discretionary flexibility in order to convey the intended meaning.


You may wish to use Bible Gateway or E-Sword to compare translations. (E-Sword is keyed to Strong’s concordance.) A lot of very fine translations have come out since the NASB – ranging in style, purpose, and intended audience.

Just today I discovered Bill Mounce’s blog where he discusses various exegetical challenges. He is a Greek scholar and teacher (maybe KingJimmy took some of his courses) who includes helpful information on the website - mainly helps for Greek study. I’m in the midst of his course “Basics of Biblical Greek” – slugging through it on my own. Mounce’s method is far more than just a bunch of dry grammar. He gets you into Bible translation and also explains various translation challenges. (I think his dad is/was a Bible translator). By studying Greek my appreciation for the challenge of Bible translators grows by the day! We need to be supporting these people in prayer, not pitting ourselves against them with our less-than-well-informed opinions! They have an important job!

Here’s the site – which should take you to various adventurous places:
[url=http://www.teknia.com/]Teknia Greek [/url]

Have fun!

Diane




_________________
Diane

 2008/7/2 18:49Profile
BeYeDoers
Member



Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re: NASB or NKJV??

Quote:
lately I have been liking the NKJV. Some of the words used in the NKJV have a stronger thought emphasize.



I would only caution that maybe we shouldn't pick versions based on what we think "sounds the best" based on what we would like to hear (i.e. emphasis on the "for us" in the qtd. verse). We should strive for what is the most accurate, pure version of what God has chosen to say to us. Of course, through diligent study, different people come to different conclusions on what this is ;-)


_________________
Denver McDaniel

 2008/7/2 19:13Profile









 Re:

Quote:

roadsign wrote:
Quote:
Can't we all just get along!


Bless you, Mike, I appreciate your caution against division. After all, there are plenty of “bible scholars” out there who would love to see us argue over bible translation “errors”. It props up their own mission: to discredit the reliability of the Bible. When we realize that we have many enemies “out there” who have been writing convincing “reliable-latest- researched” proof that the Bible is a big fake, then we will realize that we can’t afford to divide ourselves over the Bible. People need to know that it is trustworthy.

Last year I did a research paper on Bible translations and was fascinated by what I discovered. There is plenty information out there on the subject. In fact, when you start digging, you see that this is no small battle. And yes, there is certainly a lot of mudslinging going on in the family of God. But as you proceed, you develop discernment between who are speaking with authority and who with their fixed opinion.


The NASB is a fine translation, but, as many have felt, the translation team tried too hard to translate word for word. Thus you see some woodenness in the language. Greek and English are very different. Translators do need to exercise some discretionary flexibility in order to convey the intended meaning.


You may wish to use Bible Gateway or E-Sword to compare translations. (E-Sword is keyed to Strong’s concordance.) A lot of very fine translations have come out since the NASB – ranging in style, purpose, and intended audience.

Just today I discovered Bill Mounce’s blog where he discusses various exegetical challenges. He is a Greek scholar and teacher (maybe KingJimmy took some of his courses) who includes helpful information on the website - mainly helps for Greek study. I’m in the midst of his course “Basics of Biblical Greek” – slugging through it on my own. Mounce’s method is far more than just a bunch of dry grammar. He gets you into Bible translation and also explains various translation challenges. (I think his dad is/was a Bible translator). By studying Greek my appreciation for the challenge of Bible translators grows by the day! We need to be supporting these people in prayer, not pitting ourselves against them with our less-than-well-informed opinions! They have an important job!

Here’s the site – which should take you to various adventurous places:
[url=http://www.teknia.com/]Teknia Greek [/url]

Have fun!

Diane






great comment Diane. I appreciate your gentle demeanor in your comment.

I justed started a theology class at church, we are finishing up basics on Hermeneutics. Its not a in depth course just to covering basics. So going through this I have looked closely into the verses I would study and look for observations and as I would begin to compare with other translations, some just, for me, had a stronger impact.

I am feared trying to delve into Greek, I have a hard time with grammar and english! :-) Greek would be a huge challenge, but I think I would be up for trying to learn.

Blessings to you
Mike


 2008/7/2 22:00









 Re:

Quote:

BeYeDoers wrote:
Quote:
lately I have been liking the NKJV. Some of the words used in the NKJV have a stronger thought emphasize.



I would only caution that maybe we shouldn't pick versions based on what we think "sounds the best" based on what we would like to hear (i.e. emphasis on the "for us" in the qtd. verse). We should strive for what is the most accurate, pure version of what God has chosen to say to us. Of course, through diligent study, different people come to different conclusions on what this is ;-)



If I really wanted to hear something I liked I would read the New Living Translation! :-)

However, I think you have missed my point I was making and what others have stated on this thread concerning omitting and choice of word translations.

Mike

PS
I was just curious on the bible translation others used. I didn't want to get into a debate, I just had some concerns on certain passages. SI, for me is a great place for accountability, there are many on here who I personally value there opinion.

I won't comment on this thread again...sorry for the ruckus! :-(

 2008/7/2 22:06
BeYeDoers
Member



Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Oh brother, I meant nothing demeaning toward you by my comment! I hadn't read anything else on the thread but your initial post. And I didn't mean to insinuate that you picked your Bible such as to remove the heavy and keep the light, or whatever...even though you probably couldn't have read what I said in any other way :-o My bad. Sorry. It was more of a generalized, "let's be careful how we approach this" kind of thing.

For the record, I think the Byzantine text is superior to the Alexandrian, and that old(er) English is more precise than modern English, so I like to study KJV almost exclusively. I believe the NASB is the best for the Alexandrian set, and consult it from time to time.


_________________
Denver McDaniel

 2008/7/2 22:20Profile





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