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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Answers Requested

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Joined: 2005/5/9
Posts: 659

 Answers Requested

Can anyone bring clarity to the following thoughts I have had for months now:

Why does God create the billions and billions of people that have ever lived and only elect to save some of them unto Himself and then punish the vast, vast majority eternally in Hell for the sins they have committed?

If you believe God gives us free will to choose or reject Him, that is fine but then there is the fact that God is all knowing so He still created the billions and billions of souls who He knew would reject Him and then cast them into Hell.

The Bible seems to indicate moreso the love God has for man, rather than hatred but yet why do the majority end up in eternal torment?

Many great men of God have been Calvinists, what have they said on these things? I have been able to find no good answers from people here where I live and I have not come across answers in personal study. Are Calvinists seemingly rejoiceful that they were chosen by Christ, and in essence "could care less" for those sinners who will be eternally damned? Does the Calvinist not beg to ask God why they were chosen, and what about the rest of the wicked, sinful world of which they used to be?

Does the Arminian simply say well every man and woman could have turned to Christ if they so desired, so they get what they deserved? (Which still leads back to the initial statement of God's knowing the fate of all men before they were even conceived)

Those that say I am neither a Calvinist or Arminian what are your answers to these thoughts? Or do men not even care?

Your thoughts according to the Scriptures would be greatly appreciated on this.

Thank you

 2008/6/22 3:44Profile

Joined: 2007/7/16
Posts: 51

 Re: Answers Requested

You might find this sermon helpful in answering your questions in a biblical way;

[url=]Light Rejected! Light Neglected! Light Reflected![/url]



 2008/6/22 5:39Profile

Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re: Answers Requested

I believe these articles may be helpful brother. They are worth reading.

[url=]Spurgeon's Theology: Embracing Biblical Paradox[/url]

[url=]Election by J.C. Ryle[/url]

"For one thing, the doctrine of Election was never meant to destroy man's responsibility for the state of his own soul. The Bible everywhere addresses people as free agents, as beings accountable to God, and not as mere logs, and bricks, and stones. It is false to say that it is useless to tell people to cease to do evil, to learn to do well, to repent, to believe, to turn to God, to pray. Everywhere in Scripture it is a leading principle that man can lose his own soul, that if he is lost at last it will be his own fault, and his blood will be on his own head. The same inspired Bible which reveals this doctrine of Election is the Bible which contains the words, "Why will you die, O house of Israel?" "You will not come unto Me that you might have life." "This is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." (Ezek. 18:31; John 5:40; 3:19.) The Bible never says that sinners miss heaven because they are not Elect—but because they "neglect the great salvation," and because they will not repent and believe. The last judgment will abundantly prove that it is not the lack of God's Election, so much as laziness, the love of sin, unbelief, and unwillingness to come to Christ, which ruins the souls that are lost." - J.C. Ryle

This next article may shed some light as well

[url=]The Balance Between Human Logic and God’s Logic [/url]

Grace and peace brother


 2008/6/22 8:58Profile

Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re: Answers Requested

God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are both clearly taught in the Word of God. At times these truths seem irreconcilable to our puny, finite minds. We do not understand how they can both be true. God has not told us that we need to fully understand these things; however we do need to humbly bow before the authority of His Word and believe what God has revealed, even though we may not fully understand it. Divine sovereignty and human responsibility are like railroad tracks. As we look at them they appear to be parallel and we cannot see how they could ever come together, but when we look at them in the far distance at the horizon, they meet. So it is with these God-revealed truths. We have trouble seeing how they come together, but in the mind of God there is no problem at all.

The danger comes when men emphasize one truth to the neglect of the other. God's truth must be kept in careful balance, and we must not tend toward extremes in either direction. Man's responsibility must not be over-emphasized to the neglect of God's sovereignty and God's sovereignty must not be over-emphasized to the neglect of man's responsibility. Both are clearly revealed on the pages of Scripture and both must be believed and received as God's truth.

Dr. Harry Ironside gave the illustration of the sinner coming to the door of salvation (John 10:9). Above the door was a sign which says, "Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22:17). The sinner responds to this gracious invitation, trusts Christ and he is gloriously saved. He now turns around and looks at the door through which he had just entered. He sees above the door another sign which says, " Him before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4). Both are true. Both are taught in the Bible. Both must be believed.

Those who are saved have only God to thank; those who are lost have only themselves to blame. God gets all the credit for man's salvation; the unsaved man must take full blame and responsibility for his eternal damnation. The saved person thankfully says, "I'm in heaven because of God!" The lost person must truthfully say, "I'm in hell because of me!" Those who are damned will never be able to blame God or say, "I'm damned because God did not choose me." Their damnation is based not upon God's rejection of them but upon their rejection of God: "He that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16). "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thess. 2:12 and compare verse 10). "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life" (John 5:40).

Man does not contribute to his own salvation. It is the work of God, "not of works lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9). God does not contribute to man's unbelief. That is man's work. God alone must do the saving. Man must do the believing. God must get all the glory and all the credit: "That no flesh should glory in His presence....That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord" (1 Cor. 1:29,31). Unbelieving man must take the blame. The believer saved by grace can gratefully sing, "To God be the glory great things He hath done!" "Oh to grace how great a debtor daily I'm constrained to be!"

Would you really like to know that you are one of God's elect? Then come as a poor sinner and accept His invitation; for He says, "Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden" (Matt. 11:28). If you do that, you are one of God's elect. Remember election is God's business, leave it with Him! Believing is YOUR business; do it, and God will not fail! Jesus puts the two together in one verse: "All that the Father giveth Me shall come to me." That's GOD'S part. But now notice the rest of the verse: "And him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37). That's YOUR part! If you will come, you can rest assured that it was the work of God Himself which motivated you. --Dr. M.R.DeHaan

The preceding contained quotes and snippets from an article found [url=]here[/url]


 2008/6/22 14:34Profile

Joined: 2007/4/8
Posts: 68
Canadian in America (Bremerton, WA) "A stranger in a strange land..."


I'll let the clear word of God speak...

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO PREACH THE GOSPEL OF PEACE, WHO BRING GLAD TIDINGS OF GOOD THINGS!"

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;
Mat 13:17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
Mat 13:18 "Therefore hear the parable of the sower:
Mat 13:19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.
Mat 13:20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Mat 13:21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Mat 13:22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
Mat 13:23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."

Rev 2:7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." '

1Jn 5:5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like it: 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Joh 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

Joh 14:24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

In order to discern truthful doctrine we must, by His Spirit balance all scripture together to sumerize the truth, isolated scriptures are very seldom complete doctrinal statements as the word of God is a perfect complete work ordained by God, every book, every word and every space.

All for souls,


William Thomas Anderson

 2008/6/22 17:50Profile

Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2779
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: Answers Requested

The Bible seems to indicate moreso the love God has for man, rather than hatred but yet why do the majority end up in eternal torment?

Difficult question. I think love has a lot to do with the answer. Love cannot occur without freedom, but freedom opens the door to pain and suffering. Here's something from Jeff Vines that speaks to this matter...
"Can you imagine the tension God must have encountered in his decision to create? He wanted love to be the highest value in his universe—love between Creator and creature, and between creature and creature. The only way, however, God could ensure that all men and women on the planet receive and return such love was to insert, within every human being, a microchip whereby he could control the mind of every person.That would not be genuine, authentic love.

So, in the creation scenario, God grants freewill in order to protect life’s greatest pursuit, love. Enter the tension! As soon as God decided to create a world where genuine, authentic love could exist, the potential for pain, suffering, and evil also became part of the package. Why? Essential to love is freedom.

People are asking, ‘How could God create a world that featured the possibility of pain and suffering?’ Few ever ask, ‘How could God have ensured a world without pain?’ Only one answer exists to that question: create a world without freewill."

This would be the only possible way to ensure no pain, suffering, or evil exists in our world. The only problem is that in such a scenario, love would not and could not exist. Since love is the very reason the world was created, love would be something God would not be willing to sacrifice."

In Christ,


Ron Halverson

 2008/6/22 19:07Profile

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: Answers Requested

Dear Ricky,

I empathise with you in wrestling with these things.

These are deep things. And I wish for you much comfort and grace from God.

Pastor Wurmbrand's messages have been comforting to me. Not that I have found all answers in them. But they have been comforting and inspiring.

I had left a couple of comments on those messages, but now I look back and think how unworthy I have been to even comment.

I wish you well,


Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/6/22 21:17Profile

Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1262

 Re: everyone

Do you believe that everybody can be saved? Or, Is it only the very elect as some explain? Now we know Jesus said, if it were possible, the very elect would be deceived.

Could it be that God chose some people for a specific work of ministry before the foundation of the world and the apostle Paul was one of them. But, as he points out in scripture, we should give ourselves totally to the ministry in the power of the Holy Spirit to strive to rescue souls from perishing, and that he believed more could be saved.

It seems to me that he is saying, that if we would give our all to God to reach the lost, more people could be saved! Here are a few scriptures to think about.

1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

1Co 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Ro 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.


 2008/6/23 0:20Profile

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4582

 Re: Answers Requested

Hi repentcanada...

Why does God create the billions and billions of people that have ever lived and only elect to save some of them unto Himself and then punish the vast, vast majority eternally in Hell for the sins they have committed?

If you believe God gives us free will to choose or reject Him, that is fine but then there is the fact that God is all knowing so He still created the billions and billions of souls who He knew would reject Him and then cast them into Hell.

I fear that our comments about such matters concerning the exact thoughts and intentions of God often border on the discussions found between Job chapters 3 through 37. Can we pretend to know the motivation of God in creating a world that He (as the One and only omnipotent Being) knew would result in the eternal damnation of billions? To speculate on such things could result in false assumptions or even accusations. Perhaps a reading of the last few chapters of Job (beginning with chapter 38) is in order?

Instead of attempting to over-analyze those motivations, why not simply read and affirm those truths of which we can be certain? As one brother pointed out: "[i]For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved[/i]" (Romans 10:13). Again, in Peter: "[i]The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance[/i]" (II Peter 3:9).

We know from the Word that we have a God who longs for all people to seek Him. He longs to gather all people unto Himself.

"For God so loved [i]the world[/i]..." (John 3:16)



 2008/6/23 0:37Profile

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