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JoanM
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Joined: 2008/4/7
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 Oh Canada!

I just heard that today, in Canada (Ont.?) the legislature, for the very first time, will not open with "The Lord's Prayer" but will begin the rotation of praying out of 8 different religions. Sigh. How long, Oh Lord, how long?

 2008/6/19 13:38Profile
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 Re: Oh Canada!


[b]Ont. legislature to keep Lord's Prayer[/b]

The Ontario legislature has voted to keep its daily reading of the Lord's Prayer.

Premier Dalton McGuinty caused a tempest earlier this year when he said reading just the Lord's Prayer every day before the opening of business was out of date.

In February, McGuinty said, "it's time we had a prayer that better reflects our diversity."

An all-party committee was appointed to examine the issue.

That committee received more than 30,000 signatures on petitions, letters and e-mails, asking the legislature to keep the Lord's Prayer.

On Thursday, the committee recommended keeping the Christian prayer, but adding an additional prayer from another religion, or a moment of silence.

Government house leader Michael Bryant accepted the compromise.

"Is it a perfect decision, perhaps, perhaps not," he said.

The New Democrats say the Liberals needlessly created a crisis by trying to get rid of the prayer.

"Dalton McGuinty retreated at the sound of speed as soon as he saw the e-mails coming in," said NDP MPP Cheri Di Novo.

read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2008/06/12/lords-prayer.html?ref=rss


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 2008/6/19 13:46Profile
JoanM
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Joined: 2008/4/7
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 Re:

Thank you for that corrective elaboration. The truth gives a clearer picture. Daily double-headed body. Better? "Perhaps, perhaps not." I will pass this on to Rabbi Lapin who reported this and will likely appreciate it.

 2008/6/19 14:20Profile
humble
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Joined: 2004/5/13
Posts: 31
toronto, ontario

 Re:

I was personally pretty surprised when I read in one of Toronto newspaper the news about "Lords prayer" Ontario parliament. I would never even suspect that such a "godly" pirliament as Ontario lagilature happens to be, did even pray before starting their business.
I was even more surprised when they did not discard it altogather and at least kept the "Lords prayer" with the rest of imported pagan prayers. I by no means think that that prayer has any moore meaning to MPs than some nice tradition, and it was only spared to justify the "diversity of life" that Ontario boasts about so much.
My apologies for possibly too bitter a sarcasm and poloticaly incorrect post. I leave in Toronto and feel full effect of "Diversity and multiculturalism". Not that I have anything against other cultures unless traditionaly foundational Christian culture is restricted and villified in favor of othere (I myself am from another culture).
May God have mercy on our country and may He grant grace to out government and leadership to repent of gross immorallities lagislated in thees evil days.
May god richly bless you all my fellow brethren and all the remnant in the world.
P.S. Greg, my dear brother, if this post is possibly unfit for site regulations I will understand due censoring.


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levan giorgadze

 2008/6/22 18:18Profile
roadsign
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 Re:

Quote:
I leave in Toronto and feel full effect of "Diversity and multiculturalism".


Hi, Humble, I know what you mean! I just spent a week in Toronto, and no matter where I was, it was clear that I belong to a minority, racially. In some public places I was the only (!) westerner. My granddaughter’s babysitter is Russian, and all the children there are from other races – Asian/African/ etc. She can pronounce non-Western names without a stumble.
(By the way, Humble, welcome to Canada! No doubt you will add a richness to the diversity!)

It seems obvious that the “western" ways are no longer in the spotlight. For the majority of immigrants, the Lord’s Prayer is an unfamiliar ritual which means nothing.

But also (!) it means nothing to the vast majority of church goers! I have preached an expository sermon on the Lord’s Prayer in four churches now, and people always come up to me and say, I had no idea that the prayer meant all that!” Now, these are dedicated “Christians” who have been reciting it every Sunday for years, religiously.

Sadly, reciting the Lord's Prayer has become a form of godliness without the power of godliness. And that, let's admit, is how most church organizations have been operating.

Quote:
That committee received more than 30,000 signatures on petitions, letters and e-mails, asking the legislature to keep the Lord's Prayer.



I am concerned that many of those who are adamant about preserving the ritual in parliament, have no idea what it means to live by its message. They pray for daily bread while living for next year’s security. They pray for forgiveness while refusing to forgive their neighbour. They hope in the kingdom of this world rather than the kingdom of God.

I ask, is there any value in using the Lord’s Prayer as a fetish? Does it make our MP’s and MPP’s make decisions that promote and protect the kingdom of God? Does reciting the prayer in parliament make Canada more Christian? Hardly!!

The Lord’s Prayer was given by Jesus for his followers - as a model. If we who truly belong to the Lord live the true spirit of its message, then we will be a light in the world, and THAT will draw people to Christ. Otherwise, insisting on the Lord’s Prayer only makes us look like religious fanatics and we will drive unbelievers further away from the living God and Savior of the world. Not only that, we end up with others then wanting "fair treatment" for their religous practise?
Is it worth it?


How, according to Scripture are God’s people a light to the world?

“… your faith is being reported all over the world.” Romans 1:8 (see also Rom. 16:25-27)

Quote:
May God have mercy on our country and may He grant grace to out government and leadership to repent of gross immorallities lagislated in thees evil days


Amen to this! And may God's people set the example in their personal lives.

Diane


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Diane

 2008/6/22 19:07Profile
JoanM
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Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797


 Re: Be encouraged.

I hear your hearts. I have concerns too. But, how interesting so many had to think through the subjects they did (Does this matter? Do I care?), and think through the compromise. They know what they did. And God knows their intent.

[b]For your encouragement[/b]: God’s word does not return void. Sitting in the congregation of a cult (Christian Science), at a pre-school age, I was repeating The Lords Prayer with everyone else, with my eyes riveted on the wall where it was printed. "God is Love …1 John 4:16". When I said, as I had before, with the others there, “Our Father”, God revealed Himself to me as my father. At that same moment I could read, for the first time in my life and I read and understood the markings on the wall: God is Love: God is my father. I was astonished, exceedingly joyful, had no idea what that meant exactly, wanted to tell every one, had no idea what to say, etc. etc. Oh how I sang the hymn that followed! My mother taught deaf children and may have been trying to teach me how to read. It is a treasure to me that the first thing I ever could read was the Word of God (not the reference. That came years later.). I am going to stop this testimony with the simple history that God much later revealed himself as the Word, the Son of God, Jesus (John 1:1), and much, much later as the Holy Spirit; all in ways that only God could do.

[b]So what do you think Humble?[/b]

[i]"I by no means think that that prayer has any moore meaning to MPs than some nice tradition, and it was only spared to justify the "diversity of life" that Ontario boasts about so much."[/i]

It really didn’t mean anything to me, a five-year-old. God’s about what He’s about, when we’re about what we’re about. I am thinking it doesn’t matter. Revelation is revelation.

[b]And Roadsign ?[/b]:

[i]"I am concerned that many of those who are adamant about preserving the ritual in parliament, have no idea what it means to live by its message. They pray for daily bread while living for next year’s security. They pray for forgiveness while refusing to forgive their neighbour. They hope in the kingdom of this world rather than the kingdom of God.

I ask, is there any value in using the Lord’s Prayer as a fetish? …… Is it worth it?"[/i]

I think maybe it is.

With confidence in in our soveregin God, and His Love for the brethren and with prayer.

 2008/6/23 3:01Profile
roadsign
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Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
I ask, is there any value in using the Lord’s Prayer as a fetish? …… Is it worth it?"

I think maybe it is.



Joan, Certainly I can agree that even within hypocritical religious practise there are often moments when we can redeem something good and even use that for the kingdom. I have done that often, and certainly have seen God do that.

Yet, what would scripture say overall regarding the practise of using God’s name in vain.


The Lord’s Prayer begins with “Our Father” –not ‘The Father”. Now consider the commandment: “Do not take the Lord’s name in vain.” In other words, do not claim to belong to the Lord when you are not his. It is absolutely useless! You will not receive the protection and provision and blessings that are reserved for those who truly belong to the Lord. You are actually lying, deceiving yourself. Such deceit, tragically, merely serves as immunity against the authentic. As long as you believe you are somewhat acceptable to God, based on something you do that seems righteous, you will not see your need for Christ. For that very reason many are hellbound, fully expecting to say, “Lord, Lord….” (ie, assume a personal relationship) on the final day.

Is it worth it?

But, the problem is more serious than that, as we see in Romans 2:24 “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.” This is where so many Christians fail as diagnosticians. They are blind to the huge backlash against the gospel because of their past and present failures to exemplify authentic Christlikenesss while a the same time defending the things of God: Biblical inerrancy, the Lord’s Prayer, etc. And so, as a result, we see many ‘out there” who are seeking other ways, not even considering God for a moment. They are so convinced that the Bible leads to divisions, pride, etc based on their observations that they don’t even believe it is a viable solution. This makes it insurmountably more difficult in the role of evangelism.

Is it worth it?

Is it worth insisting that the ungodly exercise at least a form of Christian practise? Do we really think that will make things better? Is that how the gospel is preserved down the generations?

Certainly some personal experiences may seem to prove otherwise, but generally speaking I see no biblical support for the encouragement of false piety. Believers have a clear calling, and it is not that. In fact, God himself does not allow that to continue, as we see in scripture. He spits them out, he shuts down the doors, he allows enemies to overtake them, etc.

It is my conviction that if we would focus more on our own relationship with God than on how others aught to conform, we would be a far more effective testimony.

"And now dear children, continue in him..." Jn. 1:28

Diane






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Diane

 2008/6/23 7:17Profile
humble
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Joined: 2004/5/13
Posts: 31
toronto, ontario

 Re:

Hi Diane and Joan,
Thanks for your thoughts and warm words.
As for me, I could sign my name under both of your positions.
Nevertheles, I will have to consider the fact that Lords prayer was intended only for Lords followers, and for that reason it may possibly be unaccaptable to Lord Jesus when unbelievers resite it as a mere ritual. Remember that to God, sin infested Israelit's sacrifices and prayers were seen as an abomination. But won't be dogmatic about that ither.
I can also say that God may open the heart of an unbeliever at hearing this prayer or any other word from scrptures. And again, I dont really feel qualified to argue and defend any of these two positions.
My pont was that since I am relatively new to Canada, I did not know and for obvious reasons did not think, that prayer was said befor the begignning of the workday of Ontario Parliament. The parliament that has no problems lagislating the butchering of unborn babies and the rest of the abominations. Same may be true for Federal parliament too I assume.
Sad, sad part is that we(I mean country as a whole) are falling from grace verry rapidly and dangerously.
As for an encouragment and comfort I would repeat Paul Washers words: "the church is doing grat in America". And I'll add in Canada too. Obviaously he meant the real church of the Lord's saints. So more important question qould be: am I saint? Here is another qoute from late Dr. J. Vernon McGee: "you are either saint or ain't".
Thanks be to Christ Jesus our Lord!


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levan giorgadze

 2008/6/24 14:14Profile
JoanM
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Joined: 2008/4/7
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 Re:

I think I hear your heart (the truth and the frustration): If only those (probably) not born again would not speak the name of Christ, and harden hearts with the letter and their Godless behavior (hypocrisy), and not force other dead men to speak of Christ, in vain, only heaping more sin upon themselves, encouraging false assurance…. (a lot of good things and) evangelism might be more effective/less hindered. Yes, oh yes.

[u][i]“It is my conviction that if we would focus more on our own relationship with God than on how others aught to conform, we would be a far more effective testimony.”[/i][/u] I whole-heartedly agree with you here. As it falls out, I just cancelled a post because right in the middle of it. God convicted me of sin (that “grumpy” feeling that is really the sign of anger). With that under the blood, I saw things differently. The post was re Lakeland and a recent magazine article, if you get the picture. I was able to thank God that he continues to grow all of us up (myself and the author of the article). It would be hard to tell where more damage is done via false assurance or Lakeland, or being asleep, or the sin of being intimidated. They probably all give rise to each other.

Actually, I read the news of Canada like a thermometer. We know there are only two kingdoms. We can see what the ruler of the kingdom of this world is about doing. I just like to look into what the Ruler of the Kingdom of Heaven is about doing. So after Phi.4: 4-8, verse 9 stands out to me.

The clear calling of the believer and where to apply His gifts is important in this short life to both of us (among many). I thank God he has not called me to labor as a member of the Canadian government system. And maybe there isn’t a single Christian left there. Still, I remember the foundation on which Wilberforce argued against slavery in England, the time he spent before God and with Godly counselors. And I remember what is written about the foundation of Lincoln’s view. Similarities and differences. Did you read something about what was said in the debates in Canada? If only we had a Chronicles and Kings to read for these days.

As for my little N=1 experience, I only know having repeated many times “Our Father”, I too took His name in vain, right up until I didn’t. God is so amazingly unique and individual in His ways with man. I can easily think that the specific way He broke through to me would not be His specific way with any other. The Canada news put me in mind of it, in a Phi.4: 8 sort of way.

Where the rubber meets the road it would be hard for me to vote against prayer in school. Or to push evidence of a Biblical worldview (current or historically) out of the public arena, confining it to kitchen table talk as someone else has pointed out. I have voted for such things as no abortion as I wept over the bombing behavior of alleged “Christian right to life” people. I note that as I type the Fairness Doctrine (re free speech) again comes forward. To your on-spot conviction: [i][u]that if we would focus more on our own relationship with God than on how others aught to conform, we would be a far more effective testimony. “[/u][/i] I would add and more effective in prayer for revival that cleanses widely. Application of revealed truth is often a sticking point. Returning to Philippians: I have hope that a swarm of hornets might wake some.

As to this [u]rediculusly long post[/u], I know you know all this and trust that the mind of Christ in you will correct all it’s shortcomings. Thank you for the many lessons. I am grieved at hypocrisy, and all the sins touched on here, including mine as He shows them to me. Maybe I should just post this last sentence.

 2008/6/24 20:03Profile
JoanM
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Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797


 Re:

I hear your spirit Humble. What a sweetie. Your post surprized me just after I clicked submit. Oh that's cute. Ok. I submit to Him in all this. Some of what I wrote may be meaningful. Just toss the rest.

The more I learned about US history the more I felt connected to brothers and sisters that have gone before us, their battles and He who sustained them in the kingdom of this world. May God comfort, guide, and encourage the battle-weary ones that did not make such awful votes unanimous. It actually does seem to me that things are escalating in the downward. Then again, I may have been groggy with sleep for a while.

 2008/6/24 20:57Profile





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