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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are Infiltrators (Jude, 2 Peter 2) Born-Again?

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Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia

 Are Infiltrators (Jude, 2 Peter 2) Born-Again?

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
Doom of False Teachers

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries, 11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, 13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. 15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2

1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. 17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. 19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
Glory to God
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you[f] from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior,
Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both now and forever.
Amen. Jude

I've been reading Macarthur's The Truth War, and the above two passages, while sounding a clear and at times terrifying warning about false teachers infiltrating our fellowships, I'm a little confused as to the nature of apostates.

Both passages give common description with regards to the most heinous forms of false teachers. However, I noticed what I thought was a huge difference: 2 Peter 2 seems to imply that at one point in time, apostates did have a tangible religious experience of salvation, only to lose it and go back to their sinful nature.
Jude on the other hand, seems to say that such people are not regenerate, but are pre-programmed to deception (in contrast to true believers who are being sanctified), yet asks that the reader be willing to reach out to those that seem willing to receive salvation, even if it means warning them harshly.

This is related to a conversation I was having with my pastor about the Arminian/Calvinism debate in which he raised 2 Peter 2 as support against the Reformed view of Perseverance of the saints.

So which is it? Here are the two options:
1. Apostates were once born-again Christians living under grace who somehow lost the standing in Christ to the point that they have gone back to their sinful nature before.

2. Apostates were never born-again, yet are pre-programmed by demonic powers to outwardly bear resemblance to a true believer while concealing Satanic influences underneath.

Benjamin Valentine

 2008/6/19 9:41Profile

Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2676
Nottingham, England

 Re: Are Infiltrators (Jude, 2 Peter 2) Born-Again?

Intresting subject.

I have also read the Truth War.

However, I have no answers to this. So, I'll wait and see what answers arise.


 2008/6/19 9:48Profile

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791

 Re: Are Infiltrators (Jude, 2 Peter 2) Born-Again?

First of all, Salvation is not a "thing" that one can loose like loosing you car keys.

Salvation is a relationship. Relationships take, at least, two.

If one does not do their part, the relationship will not work.

However, it's very dificault to leave a realtionship with The Most Lovable(God).

For example:
Do you try not to cheat on your wife?
No, there is no need to "try" because you naturally don't cheat on your wife because you love her.
The same with our relationship with Christ.
Love never fails(1Co 13:8),

However, sin is very subtle, it may creep in, and if it is not delt with, what then?

[b]Deception is what will lead one astray![/b]
If one does not know or love HIS Word(love the Truth), he may stray into things that lead to another gospel which is not the same as the truth.(Gal 1:6-7)
False prophets and false teachers among us, who secretly bring in destructive heresies...
...will lead some to deny the Lord that bought them and bring upon themselves swift destruction(2Pe 2:1-2, Mat 10:33, 2Tim 2:12-13 1John 2:23).

These heresies that the devil brings in through false teachers & false prophets are so very subtle that [b]some who are truly saved but ignorant of the Word[/b] may be decieved by false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ, And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light (2Co 11:13-14)

I But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his cunning, so the ones who are truly saved but unlearned in HIS Word will be lead astray; if one that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if they receive another spirit, which they have not received, or another gospel, which they have not accepted, they might well bear with them.(2Corinth 11:3-4)

 2008/6/19 14:09Profile

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