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 Re:

I just read Andrew Murray's book, [url=http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Voice/Murray.Divine.Healing.html]Divine Healing[/url] and it has changed my views on divine healing. I haven't had time to read this thread yet...but I thought I'd throw a book recommendation out there to add to the discussion. :)

 2008/6/18 16:25
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
I don't think King Jimmy (based on the statement above) is trying to say that you are instantly promised healing upon regeneration.



I don't think he believes that either (other than saying we will all be resurrected- which I agree), but if physical healing is in the atonement, I don't see how you can separate it from being promised instantly. Isn't justification promised instantly upon belief?


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Josh Parsley

 2008/6/18 16:28Profile
Thommy2
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Joined: 2008/6/3
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 Re:

" Isn't justification promised instantly upon belief?" -preachparsly

yes but so is glorification. those who He has justified He has also glorified...past tense. So I would say even if our glorification has not come to fruition we could still hold on to its truth as a past tense event. Couldn't we also do the same with healing? i.e. Even though I am still doing insulin shots today I know that b/c of the person and work of Jesus my diabetes has been healed and I am just waiting for the reality to come to fruition.

Thommy


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Thom

 2008/6/18 16:35Profile
PreachParsly
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Couldn't we also do the same with healing?



I think it's a little different because some are actually healed today. Are any Christians here on earth glorified today? In other words, we expect this to be a future event unquestionably. There are certain things that will come in the future that we should hold fast until the end. And then it will come. We should surely believe in the resurrection- it's going to happen.

I know that some sickness can be because of sin and that some are healed immediately upon faith. But the question is why aren't all?

Here is an example.

Php 2:25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.
Php 2:26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
Php 2:27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

Epaphroditus in this case seems to be healed, but it tell us the reason he was sick. And it didn't say that it was because of sin or unbelief but because he worked so hard.

Php 2:30 Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.

Actually, this doesn't seem like too bad of a characteristic to have.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

If the scriptures teach that healing is in the atonement, I'll believe it. Actually, I used to believe it... but I really don't think so anymore. And no, I haven't been getting sick since I've reconsidered it! Even with a few "Word of faith" books sitting on my shelf judgment hasn't fell on my apostasy. :-)


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Josh Parsley

 2008/6/18 16:49Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

What scriptures do you think directly teach there is healing in the atonement?



That healing is provided on the basis of the atonement is taught in Matthew 8:14-17. In this passage, Christ heals Peter's mother-in-law, to which Matthew quotes the great Messianic passage, Isaiah 53:4, as the basis of fulfillment: "Surely our griefs [sicknesses] He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried..." The very next verse in that great passage, if you recall, goes onto say "...and by His stripes, we are healed."

This shows that divine healing finds its source in the crucifixion of Christ. Healing finds its source in the crucifixion of Christ just as the basis for the forgiveness of sins is found in His atoning sacrifice. For sickness and death did not enter this world save through the power of sin unleashed in creation at the fall. Thus, both are dealt with at the cross.

Quote:

If healing is in the atonement like forgiveness of sins are, then they should be received similarly.



Now we are getting into more tricky waters, areas which I care to tread more carefully. Healing, like the forgiveness of sins, is received on the basis of faith. And the same type of faith that is released to bring about our salvation is the same type of faith that can bring about the healing provided in the atonement.

Where I part with those who hold to a word of faith view of healing (who insist that the child of God should never be sick, and should always walk in divine health, on the basis of faith), is that while healing is indeed provided in the atonement for all who believe, the procurment of that healing as an abiding reality in the here and now is nowhere promised in Scripture.

Thus, while I understand that healing is provided in the atonement, and real physical healings can occur in the here and now on the basis of that, I also understand that we still live in jars of clay, that we live in a fallen world where things are acitvely decaying, including our human bodies. For, we are still eagerly awaiting the redemption of our bodies. While we can actively expect God, and believe God for healing in the here and now, ultimately, there may be times where we suffer greatly physically due to sickness, due to the fact we live in a fallen world.

Such may seem inconsistent. But, consider that in Hebrews 11 we read of individuals who died in faith believing God for the things God promised them, things they never obtained in the here and now. But there were others who by faith, obtained the things promised to them by God in the here and now.

Can we work out the seemingly arbitrariness of who gets healed and who doesn't? I don't think I for one can. But, what I do understand is that healing is provided in the atonement. In a sense, by faith, we all are healed at the moment of salvation... that is, healing is provided for us in the atonement.

Thus, somebody who walks around coughing and is sick utters no lie when they say, "By His stripes I am healed!" Such a person no more lies than when Abraham introduced himself as Abraham, long before the child of promise ever came along. For, "Abraham," if you recall, means "Father of many nations." Thus, long before Abraham ever received what God had already promised, Abraham was holding to and confessing what he was believing God for. The timing by which the child of promise came into this world, however, was entirely up to God. I think that little story can be applied to healing, which God has provided in the atonement.


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Jimmy H

 2008/6/18 18:18Profile
RobertW
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 Re:

Quote:
Where I part with those who hold to a word of faith view of healing (who insist that the child of God should never be sick, and should always walk in divine health, on the basis of faith), is that while healing is indeed provided in the atonement for all who believe, the procurment of that healing as an abiding reality in the here and now is nowhere promised in Scripture.



Now we have a problem. If healing is provided in the atonement in the [i]same sense[/i] and on the [i]same basis[/i] as salvation from Sin and sins, it would have to carry the same promise as God saying- "He was not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance." Otherwise we end up with an inconsistency and give opportunity to the faith healers to press their case.

It appears that Isaiah 53:5 and Hosea 14:4 are combined in I Peter 2:24. Even though I believe God heals today and have been healed and so has my wife, I believe Isaiah 53:5 deals particularly and most importantly with healing from Sin (the root)and sins (the fruit). We are 'healed' of our sinfulness and our backsliding. Hosea 14:4 seems to be in view in I Peter 2:24, 25 as a combination of [u]both[/u] it and Isaiah 53:5.

We have to be very careful here how we say healing is provided in the atonement because some people believe God has promised healing in the same sense that He offers man repentance and they are prepared to hold Him to their interpretations of Isaiah 53:5 and I Peter 2:24. Yet even salvation requires the Holy Spirit's leading and involvement. When they don't get healed their faith begins to waver and some even wonder of they are saved because they approached both salvation and healing in the same fashion. They reason that if they be not healed, what basis do they have to believe they are saved?

God's sovereignty comes into play to a great deal with the subject of healing. Though we may beseech the Lord to let a cup pass from us, ultimately we must allow His will to be done. This means we do not accuse Him for not healing (as some are prepared to do) or blame the sick for their lack of faith. In any case, in no way can salvation and sickness be grouped together as being equally available in the atonement this side of the resurrection. To do so would be a serious eschatological over realization.

We cannot just pull passages out of scripture and apply them to ourself as if to twist God's arm. The Holy Spirit will quicken the word to us and with that quickening we can respond in faith. People confuse faith and hope. Faith is trusting God; not trusting God to do [i]my[/i] will, but trusting God as He carries out His will in my life whether I understand it or not; whether I like it or not.




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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/6/19 0:08Profile
PreachParsly
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 Re:

Quote:
That healing is provided on the basis of the atonement is taught in Matthew 8:14-17. In this passage, Christ heals Peter's mother-in-law, to which Matthew quotes the great Messianic passage, Isaiah 53:4, as the basis of fulfillment: "Surely our griefs [sicknesses] He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried..." The very next verse in that great passage, if you recall, goes onto say "...and by His stripes, we are healed."



Thanks for bringing that up. I'll consider it. The first thing that come to mind though is the original context and how Peter uses that verse. They both seem to connect it directly with sin, rather than physical healing.

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

I wonder if Matthew uses this similar as he does other OT scriptures.

Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Now, to look at the original context of "out of Egypt..." we would never see it as a prophecy.

Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Hos 11:2 As they called them, so they went from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incense to graven images.

Surely, in Hos. this is actually talking about Israel the nation yet Matthew says it was "fulfilled" by Christ. It seems that Matthew sometimes takes scripture and when Christ does something parallel to it, he calls is a fulfillment. Here is another example.

Mat 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
Mat 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

Does the original context in Jer. actually refer to the killing of 2 year and under children? Or something else?

Jer 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer 31:16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.


I haven't looked really deeply into the issue but this seems to be something particular to Matthew's style. That is to take a scripture and parallel it with something that Christ did. If Matthew has done this with the scripture you referenced then it might not be he is trying to connect physical healing to the atonement. At least not a direct connection. There is a parallel like Israel being called out of Egypt and Christ coming out of Egypt. The two aren't necessarily directly connected in the sense that both are to convey the exact same thing*, but they are parallel.


* Here is an example of a scripture being fulfilled that are conveying the same thing in both contexts- which should lead us to conclude that they are literally fulfillments of a specific prophecy rather than a parallel fulfillment.

Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Joh 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.


Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

I'll do some more thinking about it but this is what first comes to mind.


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Josh Parsley

 2008/6/19 0:22Profile





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